MIDI: What am I doing wrong?
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Posted on Sep 13, 2012 03:05 pm
truthnaction
Member Since: May 21, 2010
Here's my hardware and the flow of signal:
Trigger> yamaha pmc1> tascam us800> windows xp sp3> cakewalk sonar 8.5
Yamaha pmc1= midi controller
Tascam us800= audio/ midi interface
I have a Yamaha keyboard that plugs in via USB and is converted to midi. When I set it up on sonar, I select the Yamaha midi keyboard (I forget the exact name) on the input selection for a midi track, make sure this input is omniscient, and everything works fine.
When I select the next midi track, I change the input to tascam us800 midi omni and dont get any note on/off signals. I'm guessing that there's a step that I'm missing. Although the hardware is old, midi data is a simple message that I'm sure sonar must know how to operate, right!? Is there a way for me to configure the hardware? The software?
Previously to opening sonar, I turn on my pmc1 (holding the system reset buttons so everything is default), then tascam, then computer, switch the tascams control panel settings to digital (making it utilize the midi I/o instead of the analog i/o), then sonar... I figure this way would be the best start because I know the order could matter somewhere, but still no results.
Can somebody help me here please? Ive posted a similar thread in the past. I haven't been able to get any help from here or any other forum. Im really beginning to believe that nobody has run into this problem. If there isn't a true expert on midi here, some one know where I could be referred? Or have a friend that could email me? My email is [email protected] list the subject "MIDI HELP"
I've been a member for many years now, and this site has always been the most help to me. Total props to db and noize for keeping this site alive and for the awesome knowledge base. And thanks in advance to whoever can help me out with this issue! Like I said, it's been a very long time since I got even a single response to my problem with this one, so anything would be great. It's got to be possible.
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Sep 13, 2012 03:28 pm Another idea I just now was thinking of (man, I wish I was at the studio right now)... Most newer drum machines, that work fine without issues, are normally the midi controller and sound brain combined into one... Would it work if I buy a new midi cord and go pmc1> brain> tascam?
My goal is to record my drums analog (cropping to make clips of each individual drum) to sample them as midi notes when I record the actual song (cymbals analog and kit midi). I already understand that the interface can't run both at once. I have another card I'll be using for midi, as soon as I get the midi-25pin cord for my sb live. If I can't do that in time, I have a friend that I can borrow another interface from. But I feel that the problem I'm running into has to do with the communication more over the hardware flow... Unless I'm correct about my new idea! That might happen. I'm going to try it out, but in the mean time, some advice would be a real help.
J-botByte-MixerMember
Since: Dec 04, 2007
Sep 13, 2012 03:59 pm So, in a nutshell, are you sending a signal through the pmc1 keyboard into the audio interface?
I know with my xboard, if I'm sending external midi signals through the keyboard, to the interface, I have to set my keyboard to "thru" mode. But the limitation is that if my keyboard is set to "thru" then I can't use it to control the external stuff, of course.
A limitation of my controller, is it only has an output jack for the midi cable, and runs off of USB, and sends midi across the USB. Now, I can use a VSTi to send midi through the keyboard out to an external device, but I can't use the keyboard to control the external device while in through mode. Rather the external device will go straight into the midi-in on the audio interface.
However, that's my limitation. I know it's not exactly the same situation you are facing, but hopefully something will jog your brain and help you figure it out. I would think it is fairly straight forward like you have it set up. In my experience, it's always something simple that is right under your nose. (unfortunately I always find those to be the hardest to find or fix!)
Sep 13, 2012 04:24 pm Dude I feel u 100% on things being right under my nose. It's the story of my life. I think I might have confused u on my setup though. The Yamaha keyboard is not the Yamaha pmc1. The pmc1 gives me 8 xlr ins that I have transducers (my cheap triggers from radio shack) hooked to. Then the signal is converted to midi in that box and is sent to my drum machine that holds the samples I use when I play live.
The keyboard is USB
Essentially I'm trying to turn my computer into a drum machine. I used the keyboard as an example that I know it does exactly what I want to do, but I want to do it with the pmc1 (as if my drums were keys and the pmc1 were the keyboard, also the tascam being the USB... Just like the keys on the keyboard are triggers, the keyboard being the sound maker/brain and also converts the midi to USB in the process.... I just have everything split out into pieces technically.. Er that's how I see it at least) so I can trigger the samples without tearing out keys from the keyboard and wiring them up to the transducers. Lmao I know it would work too, but I'm not tryin to redefine a whole new level to "the method to my madness".
I can take a clip that I record and sample it through the keyboard. That's all I want to do with the drums
Sep 13, 2012 04:32 pm That is a rather odd thing to have to do. The way u have ur midi set up, seems like the only way possible for ya. Or is there a way to set up the external device in and out to the interface, the keyboard USB to the pc, and have the software setup so certain notes from the keys midi track could effect certain notes on the other midi track; wouldn't that turn out to be controlling the other device via keys?
J-botByte-MixerMember
Since: Dec 04, 2007
Sep 13, 2012 05:21 pm Yeah, my controller is strictly output only, or thru. Now, I could easily connect one of my external synths via midi cable (neither synth uses USB...well...cept the R3, but i'm planning on selling that...possibly.)
On your situation, yeah, I was confused since the pmc1 was labeled "midi controller" hah. So basically you are using the audio generated from the kit to trigger midi events in the DAW, but at the same time want to sample the drum sounds. I can't think of anything wrong with that. Is the kit acoustic, or one of the electronic kits with the sound module? I'm assuming acoustic since you're sending it through the PMC1.
So, Kit audio signals -> pmc1 which converts signal to midi and sends -> midi-into the Tascam unit, which goes straight into the PC...that sounds correct to me. The track's midi input should be set to the tascam unit, which you've done. Beyond that it's just making sure each piece of the chain is transmitting properly along the same ports and channels.
You could use a midi analyzer like midi-ox to test the signals, and see what channels are actually being used and all that, maybe test each piece of the chain individually.
But yeah, as long as the channels and ports all match up, it should be a fairly simple setup, so somewhere in the chain, the signal is not getting through, or is getting sent somewhere it shouldn't be. That's my guess. Being an older unit, that PMC1 could be the culprit. I don't know if you have the manual, but I managed to find an online PDF www.manualowl.com/m/Yamaha/PMC1/Manual/152663
On newer electronic kits and brains and whatnot, they pretty much have the midi and sound generator all in one box. You'd connect the box to an electronic kit, and send the box midi out to the midi interface and into the computer. (I'm thinking of the Roland TD-series, Alesis DM series and Yammie DTX series electronic kits) But you could also send midi into the drum module and record the sounds off of it.
Another thought, is (assuming your keyboard has a midi-input connection) bypassing the tascam, and try sending the midi signal through the keyboard and across its USB connection. It would be equivalent to sending through the tascam. And, depending, you might be able to sample at the same time by using the tascam for the audio.
At this point, I'd test each point individually, just to make sure things are sending properly. Particularly the PMC1 since it seems to be fairly complex.
Sep 13, 2012 05:46 pm U got the setup right. I had my hopes up for a midi in on the keys too, but sadly there is none. I figured the setup was correct too. It's got to be data going to the wrong spot. Maybe a timing issue between all the hardware? I'm fairly new to midi. I've only got the PCM figured out to the point of getting it set up for live when I do shows. I read the manual a dozen times and can't figure out what everything means exactly... Wish i could give an example, but I'm going to have to do that whenever I get back to the studio. I did, however, find someone that sold a pmc1 on eBay a long time ago, and his description was that he used it for the pc and said that everything except roland worked. That sure gets my hopes up! I'm wondering, if it is a timing issue, that maybe my problems would disappear if I could use my old sb live.
Sep 13, 2012 05:48 pm Pmc1** stupid iPad crap correcter
Sep 13, 2012 05:54 pm Anybody know where I should begin to troubleshoot this kind of thing?
Sep 13, 2012 06:03 pm Btw, I'm trying to avoid the sounds off the drum module. If I end up using them, I'm going to utilize the 3 outs; 1-kick 2-snare phones-toms like I do at shows... And I'm going to run drumagog on 1 and2 and manually replace the toms. It's been months that I've been tryin to figure this out and I'm at breaking point. I might just do it the hard way. Although I have 6 inputs on my tascam, I have a 9pc kit and I still need 2 channels for the cymbals at the least (actually 8pc when I record. I have the kicks wired to the same channel on the pmc1 but I'm not doing that for recording because I want to not have to toy around with the sensitivity on a happy medium). But if that one guy can figure it out, I can too. I looked everywhere for contact info, but I couldn't find nothin.. Lameness
J-botByte-MixerMember
Since: Dec 04, 2007
Sep 14, 2012 12:20 am Yeah, I hear ya. Well, the forum's been a little slow the past couple weeks. I'm guessing people are busy with their various projects, or life. I'm sure someone besides me will chime in soon though.
And for the record, I'm not -that- familiar with converting an analogue signal into a midi signal, but I'm familiar with the concept, and familiar with midi itself. It's not that much different than routing audio signals. Just gotta make sure all the channels match up on all the devices.
Here's an idea to trouble-shoot the tascam at least. Try connecting your keyboard midi-output jack to the tascam's midi-in. Then in Sonar, create a track, and use the tascam as the midi device. See if playing the keyboard through the tascam will generate midi response data.
Then see if you can figure out a way to test the PMC1 alone. You mentioned having an SBLive. I used to have one with the breakout box on the front of my PC, but I can't remember if there are midi connectors on the card itself. (I remember the breakout box used those mini-midi jacks, so I had to use an adapter) Course, these days, I'm using an Echo Audiofire4, and a Mackie 1620i mixer as my main audio interface.
Also, in the US800, make sure it's not in stand-alone mode or something. I think in stand-alone mode it behaves simply as a mic preamp, at least according to the description.
You could try just connecting one input on the PMC1, run it into the tascam, and check each input one at a time to make sure the signal is transmitting, or try different settings on that one input...try setting the midi output to channel 1 and see if that gets registered. It should be fine to leave the DAW track set as midi omni. I'm sure it's something like a signal routing issue somewhere. Maybe a midi channel isn't set properly somewhere between the DAW and the pmc1.
Kinda like pc troubleshooting, I think you're basically down to check each individual connection, one piece at a time, so you can narrow down what the problem is, and isolate the root cause. If it is a simple problem, that's probably the best way to hunt it down. Just go through piece by piece.
