Any tips for recording grand piano?

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Byte-Mixer
Member Since: Dec 04, 2007

So, I have a potential client, and, of course, neither of us has access to a grand piano, so this may not happen. His style of music is primarily bar or cocktail music. He plays locally, and has worked on projects for other people, but is doing his own thing now.

Anyway, for future reference, any pointers? The mics I'm planning on using, are a pair of SE 2200A MkII's (the cardioid version) which are LDCs, possibly a Shure Beta 98A/C mini-condenser, and then I have some SM57's that could be positioned strategically, and a couple cheap AT2020's that I might use as room or stage mics depending on the situation.

Or I guess I could turn it around and use SM57's for all the close-micing and the LDCs for stage/room.

So, I'm thinking the SE's in stereo at about 1/3 the length of the piano from the keyboard (so one towards the top end of the keyboard, and the other towards the bottom end. The Beta 98A/C to capture some of the overall sound, so maybe at about 2/3 the length of the keyboard in the center or closer to the end? AT2020's as stage or room mics, and then if needed possibly place an SM57 or two, or four strategically if need be. And then tweak positions/adjust angles as needed.

I've looked through the Shure guide and looked at the recommended positions for their mics, and I'll probably use that as a foundation or rule of thumb, then tweak positions and angles to try and get a better sound.

Beyond that anyone have any recommendations on LDC placement for the close mics? Dynamics? the mini-condenser? I figure about 5 mics on the piano itself (SE's 2200A's, Sm57's and Beta 98A/C) and then the AT2020's as room mics. I also have those tiny Karma K-Micro mini-condensers which were all the rage about 3 or 4 years ago around the forum. I could also use those as room/stage mics if need be.


I just hope renting a room at UIowa doesn't cost an arm and a leg like trying to rent "rehearsal" time at the performing arts center. :P (which they want $150/day for renting the grand, and $200/day for the rehearsal package. Yikes)

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Frisco's Most Underrated
Member
Since: Jan 28, 2003


Jul 24, 2012 09:19 pm

Man good luck. That is way beyond my level of knowledge.

www.TheLondonProject.ca
Member
Since: Feb 07, 2005


Jul 24, 2012 11:28 pm

from my blog... hope this helps

beerhunter341.blogspot.ca...session-13.html

Byte-Mixer
Member
Since: Dec 04, 2007


Jul 25, 2012 12:28 am

Thanks BH, what you have posted on the blog is pretty much what I had in mind for the placement of my 2200A's and I've got some ideas for the other placements too. I understand part of the placement has to do with the individual piano, it's condition, make, tone, etc. But at least I have a good idea for the setup and workflow as we move from one thing to the next.

I realllly hope to get a chance to try them out. (I hope renting a room at the University won't be a wallet melter) Otherwise, I guess I'll be working with his midi files and running them through a couple of my softies.

The potential client is Larry Jensen. He's played around locally, aided as a fill-in for other projects, filled in as a keyboardist for other bands and has even played abroad. So yeah, here's to hoping to get a chance to work with him. The tracks he has up don't really do him justice (or so his wife says)

Here is his site: www.larryjensenmusic.com/

MASSIVE Mastering, LLC
Member
Since: Aug 05, 2008


Jul 25, 2012 01:25 am

BH's post is a pretty safe bet -- I'd also add a LDD if you have one lying around (421, RE20 are favorites for this) on a foam pad, gaff taped right to the plate ('harp") with the diaphragm over one of the 'ports' over the sound board , around 2/3 towards the upper, pointing towards the hammers.

(Assuming that's a photo of a C7 on that page, the "third hole down from the top" of the photo).

You can split the wide mics (I usually add a bit of top to the low mic and a bit of low to the top mic) and use the LDD as an "anchor" in the center (which is something missing from a lot of piano recordings IMO). Roll the top off quite a bit. You may need to delay it several thousand samples (maybe .5ms) but it might be fine also - Hard to say without hearing it. Lid height is going to play in that also (taking it off is pretty quick and preferable in many cases).

In any case, if you're paying for the space, mic the hell out of it and keep track of what's where. You don't have to use them all -- But there are sooooo many "right answers" to recording piano - Especially considering how it's supposed to fit into the mix -- Over-mic'ing isn't a sin there... Don't forget a distant room mic too.

Byte-Mixer
Member
Since: Dec 04, 2007


Jul 25, 2012 01:51 am

Hmm, guess that gives me reason to break out the SM7b :D

Don't need to worry much about fitting it in a mix since I believe he's planning on doing a solo work. Granted I'll have to choose which mic sources I feel benefit the mix best, but that's part of the fun!

MASSIVE Mastering, LLC
Member
Since: Aug 05, 2008


Jul 25, 2012 10:54 am

The one mic I never used for that - Just due to the shape. I'm sure it'd work though...

It'll still come in handy -- Typical wide stereo mic'ing is nice, but the whole "your head is inside the piano" thing is the part that always drives me nuts. That "core" mic allows that width, but gives the brain a focal point that doesn't change. And if you HPF the wide mics (although you can still add a certain amount of low end if you need to above that -- say 100Hz area or so), it avoids a whole terrible and exquisite phase issue that travels around dependent on the notes being played.

Byte-Mixer
Member
Since: Dec 04, 2007


Jul 25, 2012 05:19 pm

Thanks for the tips MM. It looks like our recording session will probably be a go. He has managed to get a room at Iowa Wesleyan with a supposedly excellent sounding Schimmel. He is concerned about getting good sound, but I told him I have the mics for the job, and I'm confident I can get him a good sound with what I have available.

On the SM7b, well, if I can't get it to stay put, I have a Beta 52A mic I can use that might do the job.

Byte-Mixer
Member
Since: Dec 04, 2007


Aug 01, 2012 04:53 pm

Small update: recording session is a go. Time window is Aug 5th - 14th. He's currently getting a piano tuner to tune the piano(s) The available options are the Schimmel, which is in a room that is a bit open and lively sounding, and a Steinway which is in a more dead room, but it's not completely dead.

He seems to feel the Steinway has a more mature sound. I told him I can still set up the far mics in the Steinway's room, and mix those in. Plus, of course, (and as he mentioned himself) using effects to thicken the sound afterwards if the sound is too dead.

Either way, I told him I wanted to get down there one of these upcoming weekends so I can hear the rooms myself and help with the decision. My personal preference I think, is the less live sounding room so that I have more control over the sound.

Yeah, I'm stoked. :D

I have another potential client who is getting some album material together for selling CDs at gigs, but not looking to sell retail or anything too grandiose. Sounds like he wants to record in his garage with some outside ambient noises (birds and such) to mix in as well. He plays all the instruments himself, guitars, drums, vocals, etc. So, that could potentially become a multi-session gig in September. It's not set in stone yet, but he said he was fine with my listed prices, so I'm hopeful.

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