Matrix:Reloaded
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Posted on May 26, 2003 07:49 pm
Noize2u
Czar of Midi
Administrator Since: Apr 04, 2002
OK, the boyz and I went to see the Matrix:Reloaded this afternoon, and I am really torn. dB had heard several hated it and one liked it, so I went in a bit skeptacle. I have to admit though, I am a sucker for special effects and the like.
Without giving much away I will say if you liked the first one, you will surely like this one. It is the same story line sort of, Neo saves the world, or so it would seem (there is a catch here but Im not giving anything away).
Now if you liked the music of the first movie, and I am one who goes to a movie and not only watches but listens very closely, then this movie rocks bigger then the last. The score for this flick is very good, it rocks you when it should, and leads you suspensfully down the hall and back when it should. There is one scene with Morpheus encouraging the humans who dwell in the hidden city of Zion near the center of the earth to be brave and be loud, and they do.
Now I have to admit the special effects in Reloaded go way beyond reality, (but remember its not reality here) but man is it kool. There are some scenes that made me wonder, how the heck did they do that because the interaction and line between reality and special effects is tottally invisable.
I will say the movie turns in completely unexpected ways, and leaves you wondering.
My boyz gave it a 10 of course as I expected. I will give it an 8 becuase the plot is really the same, just more action. but the music and the action kept my attention almost the entire movie, no naps here.
So if youve seen it, did ya like it or hate it?
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May 26, 2003 09:31 pm i enjoyed it. and you can thank those badass musical pieces to juno reactor. flat out the best electronic group out there [imo].
as for the plot, its not so much a re-hash as you would think. its actually pulling a WHOLE lot from organized religions; especially gnostic ideals with christian imagery. not saying its necessarily a religious/inspirational sci-fi flick.. but it is using it to its advantage.
i have my ideas on where the next one is going.
May 27, 2003 04:31 am yeah, i've got my ideas too. and i've been burning to yap, especially about the oracle. but few of my friends have seen the flick.
these films are so mythic and theme-heavy they make my head spin. the matrix is a modern myth, a deliberate commentary on the state of things at this point in history, and a perfectly realized metaphor--all three at once, besides being an action movie. the wachowski's are very smart men! the one weird thing about the matrix, though, is that it's soooooo stylized that it ends up coming off as cold, and sometimes cheesy too. i know the directors are in some part paying tribute to some of the movies and anime that they love, but ... yeah, that would be my only complaint. i have to watch the matrix as 1/2 action movie and 1/2 philosophical treatise. but that's fine. cause i'm certainly not watching for keanu reeve's acting. ;)
i think we should turn this thread into a discussion...with no fear of spoilers :)
May 27, 2003 06:42 am "i'm certainly not watching for keanu reeve's acting. ;)"
Ouch! That's harsh.
I thought it was a good movie though. The ending kinda bugged me... that's all I'm gonna say.
May 27, 2003 06:54 am Well, he doesn't have acting abaility, so it wouldbe tough to watch for :-)
He has to be the second worst actor on the planet...right before him (very close, possibly a tie) would be Nicholas Cage. Neather of those dudes can act at all.
May 27, 2003 07:09 am I definitly agree... it's harsh, but it's true.
May 27, 2003 07:14 am The sad thing is is that they both have been in some of the greatest movies in semi-recent memory. Con Air and Face Off were great movies from Cage, good action and stuff. And Point Break is still one of my favorite movies ever...of course it was mostly because of Patrick Swayze, NOT Keanu Reeves...and of course, need I mention Bill and Ted? Which is probably the bigest stretch of Keanu's acting ability ever :-)
May 27, 2003 11:47 am fortymile: i think the reason they picked reeves for neo has a lot to do with the films being so stylized. they needed someone who can come off cold and rigid. and so they picked someone who looks that way in most of his films hehehe.
that being said, the casting is superb for this trilogy.
i would be down with discussing this film more if others are.
May 27, 2003 12:02 pm come on guys... acting is really hard! keanu reeves is a football player who got an agent that believed he could be a dominant actor in hollywood. He has worked with a bunch of awesome actors who do have their say in casting. gene hackman, al pacino, laurence fishburn, morgan fredman, george carlin, patrick swayze... and the list goes on.. i think reeves is a good actor at times, he does go a good job for having such a low IQ.
flame...bringing sexy backMember
Since: Jul 01, 2002
May 27, 2003 12:06 pm lol
May 27, 2003 12:11 pm Acting isn't that hard, depending on the type of person you are, which lobe of the brain you use better...however, that isn't the squabble, the squabble is that he IS an actor and he sucks at it.
He is a totally one dimensional actor, and on top of it his band blows.
Why does every actor wanna be a rock star and every rock star wanna be an actor?
May 27, 2003 12:18 pm he knows his band sucks.. hes said it ;) i think hes just doing it for fun, because it sure isnt for the cash =P
May 27, 2003 12:22 pm thats true, he has said that hasn't he, well then why does he get to play all the cool venues when talented people that love what they do and are good at it are stuck in basement parties, small clubs and such...it ain't fair!
hell, he even got to play Letterman! And might I add he choked badly during the bass solo...Mwahahahaha
May 27, 2003 02:31 pm well i am actually a reeves fan. point break was a great action film, and i've always liked the guy. i even understand why they chose him, as far as needing someone cold and rigid. but then there's a scene like his fight with the oracle's attendant, after which he does that little half-cocked smile: 'you could have just asked...' and it's dead wrong! he blew it! illusion shattered! overall, i guess i think he is coming off as too 'oblivious' to have any inklings about enlightenment, which is part of the underlying metaphor....'waking up.' its the kind of intelligence that would ideally be conveyed with subtle facial expressions so as not to compromise the brothers' vision of neo as an everyman.
where do you guys think the third film is going?
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
May 27, 2003 08:28 pm So even though Reeves is a lousy actor so to speak. Why is it he gets these parts in great movies like this. Maybe it is becuase someone with better acting skills would destroy the part, and the viewer would not get held by the movie as they do when he is the actor playing the part. I will admit the cast of this movie is really perfect. I dont know who else could have played the Oracle, or anyone else who could play the part of Morpheus as well. It is this cast that holds up the character of Neo, and the direction of the plot, or lack there of. All I do know I went in a bit skepticle as I said, having heard form dB that he had heard several bad reviews as opposed to one good review.
I am as I said, someone who view the movie from a differant perspective. I am looking and listening at the same time. And I have to admit the score of the movie really kept it going for me.
forty, I agree with the stylized part you spoke of, but maybe that is the point. I will say that I didnt dig to deep to try and anylize the point, but more again tried to view it as you would an old B horror movie. Your point about the end of the fight with the Oracles guard, they could have fixed it and made it more convincing. But did they want to, or is that the exact direction they wanted it to go. Making you question as you did, the illusion. Did they do it to make you believe that yes, he is completely oblivious to the power he really has. Is he only just seeing the very tip of the possability of the power he has, if indeed he really does have this power at all. And lastly did he make the choice he made because he wanted to, or is it the choice they wanted him to make?
Ill think of more, but thats enough for now.
May 27, 2003 08:45 pm Quote:
Why is it he gets these parts in great movies like this.
Star power, nothing more. It's a big name to drop to promote the movie...
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
May 27, 2003 08:51 pm Will you quit reading this dB, it will spoil the movie for ya. :-)
Im felling guilty talking about it knowing that your going to read this and still havent seen the flik.
May 27, 2003 08:58 pm i personally thought they left that little grin in there on purpose. im sure you noticed how cocky neo has become in this film. that grin just goes right with the rest of his attitude.
May 27, 2003 08:59 pm well, in all honesty, the only thing I really want to see it for are the effects, coversation can't spoil those...what is this thread gonna spoil? The paper-thin plot? :-D
May 27, 2003 10:05 pm noize, reeve's acting isn't a major issue for me...i was kind of joking. in some ways he's perfect for the role and i think the casting was generally very good. its just those little things every here and there that slip through. his half-cocked smile and comment seemed like a bad attempt at a schwarzenegger-type of thing. a visual holywood catch-phrase. and he delivered it so badly that it called attention to itself. think about it: neo hasn't smiled in either of the movies so far. and then he does at that moment? and so artifically? to me it comes out of nowhere and is just there so that we can have a nice moment for the trailer and a nice little catchphrase.
the stylization is the point. i think the brothers were most definitely for going for this very cold feel and mythic feel, and that stuff gets magnified in a certain way by playing down character. but characters aren't the stars here as much as ideas are, so it hardly matters. im just saying that for me occasional cheesiness is a byproduct of that. for example, morpheus is always 100 percent 'the master' archetype. everyone is polarized. it's deliberate and probably important, but some things are inevitably sacrificed to achieve it.
as far as neo's apparent obliviousness, in my view an 'awakened person' would necessarily have to be intuitive, sensitive, attuned, etc. and i dont get that from keanu. maybe the brothers picked him for his 'everyman' vibe, which is important to the kind of story theyre trying to tell, but a certain obliviousness came along with it which seems wrong for the character. on the other hand, you could probably attain enlightenment by being exceedingly thick-headed. i don't really care, though. like i said, i like the guy, a lot even.
on another note, i believe that the architect told many half-truths at the end.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
May 27, 2003 10:53 pm Ya, I know were you were going with it forty. I was just throwing stuff up for debate. Like this one which came to mind from your Morpheus comment. If Neo is The One, then why is it that Morpheus is so powerfull, even more so it seems then the council members who govern Zion? I will give the W bros credit for leaving a lot to the imagination with the thinness of the plot. Maybe that was their intention. To let us try and decide what or who is really running the show.
And yes I agree on the cold mythic fell. I have to admit, I was a bit taken when they opened gate 3 for the ship to enter into Zion. But the part that really made it stick was when Neo and the councilman went to the enginering level. there was a point being made there somewhere, but what exactly I dont know.
I will ask you though, What did you think of the keymaker? I thought that was kind of a funky twist, but again maybe another turn in the story. Just like finding out who the Oracle really is.
And dB, I know you are just going to watch it for the special effects, that is really why I went, that and like I said, the score was very good. It really kept the mood of the movie going for me. Which collapse stated Juno Reactor are great for that stuff. I would rank them very close up there with Tangerine Dream as far as that goes.
Looking forward to all who have seen this flik and what they thought of it.
Forty, I agree with your points about the way they made this flik go, and I cant wait to see were they go from here. I guess that is why they are good at what they do.
May 28, 2003 01:45 am i wouldn't say the plot is thin. far from it: it's the most involved sci-fi flick i've ever seen, on a thematic level anyway. but some information is withheld or treated strangely so that there can be payoffs later. like the oracle, or like what you said about morpheus. i'm just taking morpheus this way: he has some power because he's a trusted man and he's proven himself time and again. and also the people in zion seem to respect him. he wants to remain a captain of a ship because thats where his personal mission is: finding and teaching 'the one.' therefore, he wouldn't have much interest in 'climbing the ranks.' i do think that the architect is a liar, though.
in the engineering level, the question asked was: 'do machines need man as much as man needs machines?' that points to some big themes in the flick. the way i see it, the question really isn't about machines at all. it's about whether man's logical, deterministic, thinking brain--the brain that built the AI's in the first place, and which built cities that are portrayed as conveyor belts, basically--needs a re-introduction to the heart. whether man needs choice--as opposed to absolute determinism. i mean: if men birthed the AIs that birthed the matrix, then the matrix is the direct product of a totally deterministic way of thought. and so the matrix is inherently flawed because it is based on that central idea, and thus there is no room for 'true choice' within it--although the masses do appear to have free will, which is the great illusion. the point could be made that that's going on today in the world, in the way that society and culture is just this great big machine that's forgetting the individual, really leaving him with few choices. the speed and the mechanical quality of modern life. the plan-less plunge into the coming techno-society, entirely based on computers. how lots of people just don't even question it. or question things in general. and i think the film is just making the point 'think about it.' i dont think it's a coincidence that the final song in the first film was 'wake up' by 'rage against the machine.'
anyway that's my two cents. this ties into so much stuff. buddhism and enlightenment and computer science and more. and it fits into my idea about what the oracle really is too. which--i dont know if i should say.
May 28, 2003 11:38 am i wouldnt say the architect is a liar, but he is definitely guilty of some half truths. he didnt really present any answers to neo [or the audience], just more questions.
morpheus is an example of a believer. he believes in one thing and nothing is going to change his beliefs. during the zion scene, it seemed that the population was divided on its acceptance of the prophecy.
i think we will also find out in 'revolutions' that they are still not really free and that there are many layers to the matrix. this has already been hinted at towards the end of 'reloaded'.
give this link a read for a lot of the religious background of the 'reloaded'.
corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htmyes, there are a lot of spoilers there.
the references to greek mythology impressed me. the split meaning of the merovingian was very cool as well.
May 28, 2003 02:09 pm yeah i know people who think there are many levels to the matrix and i know people who think there is only one. as for the architect, i think he's lying about the oracle. telling half-truths is perhaps a better term. if the oracle isn't a program that has (in her research within the matrix) become truly sentient with her own legitimate free will, then i think a cool opportunity was passed up. it would be a perfect parallel to neo's journey.
May 28, 2003 08:48 pm Wait, Keanu Reves has a band?
May 28, 2003 09:58 pm Uuummm, ya, "Dogstar"...they blow.
May 28, 2003 10:30 pm I'll have to check them out... I think.
Does he sing?
May 29, 2003 02:53 am i hope someone will read this and comment.
collapse where did you find this site? most interesting. i want that guy's reading list.
that stuff about asimov is out of left field. it's cool. i never considered that. it would explain a lot. but...isn't deliberately setting up humans to exterminate themselves kind of the same thing as doing it yourself? how far does a machine have to go to believe its own self-deception?
i was hoping someone could point out any holes in my theory here, so that if i'm not seeing something, i can avoid making an ___ out of myself at parties, and can instead continue to limit that behavior to HRC. my prediction for three is that the oracle is not neutral or evil. she's as she's appeared to be the whole time: on neo's side. (if you havent seen reloaded you might not want to read on). the reason i'm thinking this is that if she was programmed by absolutely deterministic machines to go into the matrix and learn about 'certain elements of the human psyche,' (free will and choice) it would seem inevitable that she would necessarily have to come to understand these things on a deep level, in order to be able to report effectively. this deep-understanding-directive wouldn't be programmed into her necessarily, it would just happen as a result of her specific mission...her 'purpose.' to learn is to understand. it therefore seems inevitable that at some point she would have had to experience and become what she was studying. she would have encountered her own emergent 'true' free will, which is something different from what the agents experience, or what people inside the matrix seem to have, or from what agent smith thinks he has (he's enslaved by greed and a power-lust.) the emergence of free will in a program would also be a variable that the machines would not be able to forecast, as they don't understand or posess free will in the first place. her awakening would have had to have been something along the lines of what neo went through. it would have been the creation of consciousness where before there was none.
this seems like too big an opportunity to squander, and it fits with her character and with all of the buddhist ideation. so far she's been a true beacon. to violate that and turn her into the enemy would be a tremendous offense to common hollywood storytelling manners. it would violate the carefully engineered contract of trust between the audience and the character of the oracle, and past a certain point, that becomes very ill-advised. it would also weaken her.
the machines are the enemy. if youre going to have a character as 'good' as the oracle turn traitor, the more interesting choice is for her to turn against her evil makers, not the heroes, and certainly not the audience, but to withhold that information until the final act. but i submit that she didn't really 'turn against' because she's already beyond such pettiness. her journey was long, she's weary and doesn't care about all this BS anymore. so there is that strong element of neutrality to her, which also is fundamental to her functioning as a prophetess--as a mechanism for introducing choice and real free will to neo, all of which she had to learn for herself, as he now does. otherwise it is meaningless. also notice: the oracle always appears bathed in white light. that's a sub-story artifact introduced by the directors. she actually IS good. (could be a trick, but i hope not.) enlightenment is lifting yourself up by your bootstraps. plus, making the oracle self-alive and free would in some cool way answer all those deliberately placed questions about 'to what degree do machines need man and to what degree does man needs machines?' the schism, at base, the root of all of this man vs. machine stuff, must be resolved. the oracle acheived it, in secret. written this way, her character will end up being a stronger figure, not a weaker or inconsequential one.
a central point beneath all of this is that we are not bound by 'the rules' or 'the system' or by 'control' or by 'cause and effect' if we are only able to encounter our true will and finally wake up. ultimately, this is an act of profound responsibility. it's the primary message of the story. so that's why i think the oracle is truly alive. but not human.
JHC i cant believe i typed all that. my utmost apologies.
May 29, 2003 04:48 am isnt the asimov idea crazy? that one took me completely by surprise as well.. but the more i started thinking about it, the more it did make sense. to some extent, it would answer that question presented down on the engineering level.
in regards to the machines believing their own deceptions, this is impossible to tell as it stands now, since all that we have seen has taken place in matrix lvl 1 and the 2nd level has just been 'discovered'. how would we know that anything presented thus far is 'real'? there may be no 'real world' at least in terms of these 3 films; it could ALL be a computer program. the honest to god real world could actually be a nice place. who knows.
now to the oracle. i definitely think her intentions are good; but at the same time, she IS still a part of the matrix. i think that she, too, is guilty of telling half truths; not because she wants to, but because she is still a part of the matrix. it would be a part of her programming to withhold information or to misguide neo, morpheus, and the rest of humanity.
it all keeps coming back to choice. the architect states that this is why the previous versions of the matrix have failed [his one truth]. the oracle would only have the knowledge that was written into her program. her choices are predefined [and limited]. i picture it sort of like a massively complex if/then situation. i dont see how the oracle could ever attain free will.
the merovingian shows this if/then complex extremely well. he does come from the original form of the matrix. and his causality bit is exactly how a machine thinks. persephone demonstrates his train of thought as well. one would think that he wouldve seen that coming.
just remember, it all started with "You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I'll show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes". that really makes me question if any of it is 'real'. so far its gone a lot deeper than i was expecting.
another interesting lil tid bit.. the two guards that persephone confronts in the merovingian's palace are named kain and abel.
ill contribute more tomorrow when im a little more awake =)
MatMusic EnthusiastMember
Since: Jan 24, 2003
May 29, 2003 11:06 am I didn't know Reeves had a band, but yeah it's probably not that great. I agree that Keanu's acting ability are, well, nonexistent, but I think he was perfect for The Matrix and that that in itself elevates his acting performance to a level that he probably couldn't acheive by himself. So kudos to the casting people! Seriously, who else could fit the role? Johnny Depp? He's good, but too quirky for The Matrix IMO. Then I thought about Christian Bale. He might've been ok, but he's not nerdy enough. Speaking of Bale, I saw this movie Equilibrium last weekend. Is it old? Matrix fans or amateurs of philosophy should check it out. Reminds me of 1984 in a way. There's cool gun fights in it too but I won't say anything more about it.
Oh, the link doesn't seem to work anymore. I'd really like to check it out...
Fortymile, I can see what you're thinking and I think I agree with most of it but I think like Collapse that The Oracle is bound in the matrix somehow.
I really enjoyed this movie, probably just as much as the first one. The part with the merovingian was one of my favorite (apart from all the action). All that causality talk is always interesting to me. It never really goes anywhere but it's fun to discuss.
My only complaints would be the occasional cheesyness and the over-use of special effects sometimes. I thought the fight with multiple agent Smiths looked kinda video-gameish at times. Not that anyone could do better...
MatMusic EnthusiastMember
Since: Jan 24, 2003
May 29, 2003 11:30 am Ok, I found the link. Very interesting!
I'm just not clear about a few things. At the end, the writer wonders about "agent Smith's role in all this" and something about Bane sabotaging Zion?
I thought Bane was 'infected' with agent smith...
Didn't Agent Smith pick up the phone and got sucked into the 'real' world? To me agent smith is analogous to a virus. Screws up other programs and infects them. Neo in a way, has the anti-virus in the matrix as he repells Smith when he tries to infect him. Anyway, just curious about that...
May 29, 2003 11:58 am bane/smith same person, different locations. at least thats how it stands now that smith picked up the phone. bane/smith is responsible for the sabotaging of zion.
smith is some form of a virus/trojan/worm,etc, hence his ability to replicate himself.
i dont think neo is really an anti-virus, but he has learned to manipulate the matrix to the extent that he can repulse most attacks, regardless of their nature. the architect even says that neo is an anomally in the system. it would make sense that he would be able to beat anything the matrix can throw at him, simply because programs operate on predetermined situations. neo, being an anomally, would be prone to actions that the matrix could not predict, actions it would consider irrational.
May 29, 2003 12:10 pm the way i read it, bane is infected with agent smith--when he was in the matrix. to be then sucked back out through the telephone as he then was...well, of course you would still have the bane physical body in the real world. the weirdness of that isn't an issue for me. if your physical body can die just because you believe you've died in the matrix, then that implies that it can work both ways. things that happen there can affect your body. when helicopter-piloting instructions are downloaded into trinity, that info becomes a physical part of her brain--in an instant. i see no reason why an agent couldnt write part of its will into an actual person in the same way.
can't quite figure out why no one's buying my 'real a-life' idea for the oracle. it answers so many questions while simultaneously being unobtrusive to the plot. i can see why it's not necessary, or course. if the architect is to be believed, she was designed in part to help guide the one to his purpose. but it's worth thinking about too that in the trailer for the third movie, her white-clad guardian takes up arms--against whom it's not revealed, but it shows him with a gun or sword or something. and the voice over for the trailer, i think, is the oracle, saying 'all that stands between him now is you. if you fail i fear tomorrow may not come.' why is he still listening to her? who and why is her guard fighting?
you really cant know anything without knowing if this is a second level of the matrix.
May 29, 2003 12:23 pm This thread totally cracks me up...it's kinda funny to see people put so much thought into this film...more thought than the writers of the script did (at least for the first one).
Glad you are having fun tho :)
May 29, 2003 02:01 pm db, the thing is though that they have said it is a deep, connected trilogy. its not just action that happens to have a related plot, nor is it coincidence.
and hell yes im having fun =P
May 29, 2003 02:33 pm Well, I guess "a deep, connected trilogy" is in the eyes of the beholder. I will digress on further comments until I see Reloaded, since it sounds better than the first, which I personally saw as a kinda of shallow, cheesy attempt at a deep, insiteful plot.
But maybe it's just me...I liked the effects and the tight black leather and that girl (name escapes me at the moment), but the whole concept of the matrix sort of bored me.
May 29, 2003 05:36 pm the matrix, both 1 and 2, are far and away the most literally and unequivocally 'deep' movies in terms of sheer thematic complexity, that i have ever seen. there are a multitude of lenses through which to view the films. and the view you get pretty much depends on what books you've read! this is sci-fi lit for the screen.
when i worked at the university writing center, we'd get freshmen coming in who were assigned to write about the matrix. more often than not their essays would delve into the 'neo-as-christ' contruction, which is the most obvious one. but then it just keeps going deeper and deeper. overlooking any cheesiness for the moment, (and i won't deny that the films are exaggeratedly cheesy)their genius is that they manage to be several things at once. somehow an intersection between 'blockbuster action movie' and 'perfect, multifaceted philosophical metaphor,' was arrived at by the writers. they make it look so damn easy, it's maddening. thier dorkocity far surpasses my own nascent efforts at becoming well-read. i mean, i know about asimov's 'law' and i've read a lot of quantum physics and buddhism and the pop-psych 'intersection' between the two, and i know some of the philosophers they're bringing into this. but the depth of it all is truly mind-blowing. the movie was deliberately constructed this way. the real story line is totally sub-surface and hinges upon, basically, the history of human thought as recorded in, you know, our books. the matrix dvd has a reading list attached to it. if this were literature (and it most certainly should come to be considered a breed of that in the future, once critics get over thier anti-sci-fi bias), much of the storyline would be said to be subtextual. i get too fired up about this for my own good. p.s. i like her tight leather too.
el musicoFreeleance Producer/Engineer/GtrMember
Since: Aug 11, 2002
Jun 05, 2003 01:33 am
yes fun but i disagree with DB. The W bros have been working on this world of matrix for years together. i think it would've been cool to grow up with a brother to enjoy music and recording. i think it would of added a special "sum-sum" to the work i guess.
anyways, those of you that believe the plot is thin... come on. don't let the pretty lights and explosions distract you from paying attention to the movie... just because it leaves out details at this time doesn't mean it won't answer everything in the last. this movie was meant to be a trilogy from the start... don't expect an 'X Files finale' for the last one. (god i hope so) of course, regardless of the W bros success the studio execs and producers can really mess this up.
and as far as keanu goes... your right, he can't act. Unless it's a lot harder these days to keep from looking at the camera... But as someone stated, it is a highly stylized flick. so this means that the characters would be idealized. they all have very symmetrical features. keanu reeves represents this well in the film and luckily its a part the keeps it's star dumb in the plot.
great flick though... i wonder what app they used to edit and fx. 3dMaX studio pro, avid, final cut or lightwave? in the movie you could see a big jump in cgi usage (duh) but there were times in the chase that i couldn't..
Jun 05, 2003 02:06 am i can almost guarantee that they dont use a commercial app for their effects. lucas arts uses something built in-house as well.
Jun 05, 2003 04:58 am Quote:
i wonder what app they used to edit and fx. 3dMaX studio pro, avid, final cut or lightwave?
I think they used Sonar :-P
hehehe
el musicoFreeleance Producer/Engineer/GtrMember
Since: Aug 11, 2002
Jun 05, 2003 11:11 am ooohhhh.... that was bad. haha
Jun 05, 2003 11:45 am they couldnt have used sonar for their graphics =P
i wasnt even talking about audio hehhe.
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Jun 05, 2003 12:40 pm read
Just to add something that no-one seems to have brought up.
between
Have any of you actually looked into who "Morpheus" was in mythology - the God of sleep and change.
the lines.
jues.
Jun 05, 2003 01:32 pm morpheus was also the sometimes referred to as a god of dreams.. perhaps thats a rough translation of what you said =P
this has turned into such a large thread of literary references lol.
flame...bringing sexy backMember
Since: Jul 01, 2002
Jun 05, 2003 04:31 pm Quote:
But maybe it's just me...I liked the effects and the tight black leather and that girl
better hope the wife doesnt read that db!
LokiCone PokerMember
Since: Apr 07, 2002
Jun 05, 2003 05:27 pm What I'm wondering is what the deal is with him being the one. Do you believe that he is the one and he will save Neo, or that there had been previous abnormalities like him, glitches in the code, and that Zion will fall every time? Should he trust the oracle or is she just a program for the agents? Theres a lot of points in here that lead you twisting in agony trying to figure out just what's happening and whats going to happen in the final movie.
Jun 05, 2003 06:08 pm jues, i think youre inferring that the reality we've been led to believe is reality in the film is not actually the ultimate reality. perhaps another level of the matrix. the name 'morpheus' could imply that the man is himself asleep and blind to the real truth. is that what youre suggesting?
personally i think the zion world could be another level of the matrix or it could actually be reality but thats something i wont know until i see three.
i think -- what was it, there were five previous 'saviors' like neo? but they had all decided to save humanity by returning to the matrix and allowing thier code to be disseminated to help improve the design--the only way to save everyone according the architect. but to choose that is not really excercising choice, it's following the exact plan that was laid out. so i think what's going on is that any one of those previous five could have been 'the one' if they had allowed themselves to be...if they had chosen to be. none did. it has nothing to do with prophecy, as it is repeatedly stressed throughout the films, everything has to do with choice. that said, i'm not sure exactly what role prophecy plays in these films, except as a psychological trick for spurring on choice and action. if you believe, you take action towards making that belief a reality. remember what the oracle said in one: 'if i hadn't warned you, would the vase have fallen anyway?' im not sure how, but that statement is somehow key to figuring out what these guys are saying about the nature of prophecy.
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Jun 05, 2003 10:04 pm Okay, you want my opinion.
The Architect said that the main problem with the Matrix was that there were certain humans who would simply not adapt to the matrix and would constantly rebel against it.
As a result the Architect created Zion - a place where people would feel like they had become unplugged from the matrix, but in all actuallity - they were still plugged in.
It's perfect, it gives those who want to rebel against the matrix the exit and escape they desire - they achive their goals, whilst all the while they are blissfully unaware of the reality.
This is shown by the way Neo stopped the Sentinal right at the end of the film with his bear hands - he comments "Something's different; I can feel them" - he then proceeds to hack the code - however, this time he wasn't even plugged in... or was he?
Do you see where I am going with this - Zion and the 'real' World Morpheus, Trinity, et alle see are just sub-programs designed to keep the humans asleep.
Did you also never wonder about Morpheius?
He posseses immense, if not greater powers that Neo, yet he is not "The One" - also, didn't you notice how he always knew what to do - he appeared to be "plugged in" - much like the Agents - every program serves a purpouse.
Trinity - as in "The Holy Trinity" - man kind's saviour eh? Damn straight. The architect gave Neo the choice of either resetting the Matrix (in which case the whole cycle would inevitably repeat, or to go back in and "foolishly" try to save her.
It's a good film peeps, great story line - I can't wait for the conclusion.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jun 05, 2003 11:40 pm I think I made mention of why does Morpheius seem to have such power over Zion. And yes, Neo did choose Trinity didnt he. jues, you make some interesting points. And the part were Neo stopped the sentinals, and it felt differant. I believe he is truly waking to the power he does possesse, if indeed he does. Or is he ust learning to hack the code as you stated in a much faster and logical way. Is he learning something or does he just think he is?
Think about the part were he reaches into Trinity and removes the bullet, and then reaches in and starts her heart back up. How did he know he could do that?
And yes, I too cant wait to see were they go with this in the third movie.
el musicoFreeleance Producer/Engineer/GtrMember
Since: Aug 11, 2002
Jun 06, 2003 01:02 am ooh, ooh..... did you notice that the name 'neo' has the same characters as 'one'... The One
be scared!!
Jun 06, 2003 01:14 am please pardon my rebutttal...i just enjoy this discussion. and i certainly want to come to some conclusions before part three. and i havent yet.
yes i see where youre going with this jues but i disagree about some things. it would be a betrayal of the highest order for trinity and morpheus to be programs, to be part of the system. audience betrayal! this IS a movie and there are certain, well i dont want to say rules, but there are guidelines for making sure you dont totally dissapoint the viewing public. one is to make sure you dont violate the 'important' assumptions--such as the motivations of the 'main' characters. you hardly ever see it in films because it makes people storm out of the theatre. you have minor characters go turncoat all the time--characters that dont matter so much. but this would be a major breach of contract. it's a good plot idea--there are so many good ones--but i'll be you five bucks it won't turn out that way for the simple reason that the directors know that they would be manipulating the audience to an extraordinary degree. i mean, sure you could do that. but would it make the best possible story? i think ultimately the directors will place character and theme above the 'coolness factor' of the matrix's design. yet the design will end up being totally consistent with logic. and my strongest objection is that to make those guys programs would reduce the movie to being about 'one man:' neo. but the movie seems to be more about humanity as a whole.
but they don't have to make trinity and morpheus into programs if we just allow that maybe the architect is not telling the truth. why assume that he is? sure, the cycling of non-believers through zion is a good 'waste disposal system.' but its also a very good lie for getting someone to do something you want them to.
is zion 'the matrix level two?' there are a couple good reasons for deciding it's not. for one thing, why doesn't agent smith, when he 'infects' that goateed guy, assume his normal agent-smith appearance? instead he maintains the 'residual self-image' of the citizen of zion who he infects. and from what we've seen inside the matrix, when an agent either 'borrows' or infects a matrix-dweller, he remains consistently himself in appearance.
on the other hand, here's a good reason for believing this IS matrix level two: this movie dips into buddhism a lot. so why is everyone always shooting each other? that doesn't represent the highest level of consciousness at all--so maybe there IS another level. and i have no idea why the directors would allow neo to have his 'powers' in the real world of zion. that would be like making him into some kind of comic book hero. i dont think the brothers are into that because whatever their ultimate point is, i would highly doubt that it would be "yes, you can have actual magical powers if you just believe hard enough."
what if: a) zion is reality. b) neo remains at some level connected to the matrix now, even when he's not in it, c)neo is able to crash machines in the real world through this newly discovered channel--thorugh the matrix itself.
as agent smith gets powers in the 'real world' by 'taking over' a man with a goatee, why couldn't they mirror that by allowing neo to evolve an insight that lets him reach through the matrix itself and extend his powers into the real world?
Jun 06, 2003 02:21 am i guess it would be ok, and interesting in its own way, though, if morpheus and trinity turned uot to be programs who didnt know that they were programs. then you'd have a tragic ending.
Jun 06, 2003 04:58 am in regards to zion being lvl 2:
i definitely believe this to be factual. agents are programmed for matrix lvl 1. there are no agents outside of lvl 1. [sidenote: lvl 1, agents; lvl 2, sentenials] they are only able to manipulate things inside of this level. smith is no longer an agent though. he is a virus. he can replicate himself. and like neo, he can do things with the matrix that are abnormal.
assuming zion is lvl 2, then as a virus [and not an agent] smith has found a way to "hack" the matrix and upload himself into his new identity [in lvl 2] as bane. neo's recognized powers also supports the idea of zion being part of the matrix.
personally, i wouldnt be too surprised if it turns out that the entire story that weve been told.. is a program or a simulation. a sort of modern day alice in wonderland.
Jun 06, 2003 03:44 pm "...if you want to see how far down the rabbit hole goes."
there are good reasons for thinking zion is M2, definitely. sometimes i do. sometimes that quote above is all i need. yet if you scout around you will see some interesting theories about why zion could be reality, as well. those things you said about smith hacking bane, for instance: occam's razor says your theory trumps mine, but...an airtight case can't really be made against the idea that smith has imprinted himself on the real human bane--just as humans regularly imprint thier brain tissue with information via download that allows them to know the whole art of kung fu inside of 20 seconds.
martin rees thinks the possibility exists that the universe that we actually live in is a simulation. strange to hear from a big, important physicist at, like cambridge! check out the link:
www.edge.org/3rd_culture/rees03/rees_index.html
man, i have a great link that answers every question and makes you laugh to boot. but the language is 'iffy'--i dont know what the policy is for foul-language sites on HRC.
MatMusic EnthusiastMember
Since: Jan 24, 2003
Jun 08, 2003 11:24 am I think Neo's gonna die on the next movie
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jun 08, 2003 06:41 pm forty, I will agree with a, b and c in your post. The fact that Neo said, Quote:
It feels differant is what leads me to believe he has discoverd he can use the Matrix even in the real world below. But is it only against the machinery. Are we going to see a real battle between Neo and the agent virus in Zion or not? Will the both be able to use the powers they have while in the Matrix, or will they only fight like mear mortals while in Zion? Or, will Neo easily defeat agent smith in Zion because he has discoverd the connection between reality and the Matrix?
Mat, they cant kill Neo off. He is the main reason for the film, or is he?
Jun 08, 2003 08:21 pm he is.
i believe certain long-established, carefully constructed emotional bonds with some of the characters will not be violated. neo is certainly the One, due to the fact that's he's introduced first and he's the audeience's main point of identification. it would be horrible storytelling to undo that regardless of any cool plot intricacies you would get out such a move.
there are many people who believe certain tricks are about to be played out with the oracle, but i doubt that for the same reason. i'm certain the care in her crafting means something central and as ive said before, she's really on our side.
new updates: (im way too into this, i know) i've found several posts on message boards from people who are playing the 'enter the matrix' video game. there is apparently a cutscene in there in which the oracle says 'neo has touched the source and now his mind has been separated from his body.' that seems to reinforce my theory about zion being reality. both neo and bane (the goateed dude whom agent smith has 'infected')remain on some level connected to the matrix when in the real world, and thats how neo was able to fell those sentinels. neo is now able to broadcast into the matrix without the help of morpehus's ship. perhaps he touched the source in the act of felling the machines--had to pass through it to reach the machines. it induced a coma. bane did something similar by triggering a sudden EMP attack. perhaps they are both now trapped in the matrix without a machine-link back to the real world of zion.
i think whats going to happen next is that trinity and morpheus will have to go into the matrix and get him out. the final battles will take place within the matrix, at least partly. and at least partly so that we can get some more special effects. because i dont believe neo will have any powers in the real world of zion. felling the sentinels was a trick--the sentinels have a connection to the matrix via communication/programming channels back to the mainframe in which the matrix simulation runs.
Nov 24, 2003 10:29 am FYI, I actually SAW this movie over the weekend, and I thought it was very cool...and I still lust after Trinity.
I DO NOT come even close to seeing all the underlying messages and storylines that you have all discussed, but I DID enjoy the movie thoroughly. Keanu Reeves is still a horrible actor and Jada Pinkett Smith sucks too, but Lawrence Fishburn rocks.
TheTincanbugsloppy dice, drinks twiceMember
Since: Aug 05, 2003
Nov 24, 2003 11:59 am I just read this thread for the first time...
What I Think...
* Zion is Matrix level 2
* Morpheus is a program designed to pull rebelling individuals out of the Matrix and keep them busy in Matrix lvl 2 ("the Lord of Sleep" indeed!) - but may not be aware of his purpose
* Agent Smith is a virus - explains his wanderlust, eh?
...and possibly:
* Neo is either a program written by humans to help them free the minds trapped in Zion/Matrix or he is the only real human in the whole movie, and the whole thing is a simulation in his mind
Neo's powers do not work in the real world. Therefore Zion is part of the Matrix. I don't think the movie would leap into pure fantasy by allowing Neo his powers "outside" the Matrix.
About the movie itself:
Guys.... Trinity is built like a stick. Keanu can't act, luckily his role doesn't call for it. Lawrence Fishburne is hella cool. I actually thought M2 was poorly scored - for example that first fight scene, the music totally ruined it for me - at least that's what I would say if the fight scene itself wasn't tacked on and unrealistic. I can honestly say I'm a Matrix fan, but Reloaded was disappointing. There are still some great scenes in it, but overall disappointing.
If Keanu can move "like the agents", why are the fight scenes all at the speed of a normal martial arts fight? No blurs or bullet-time imagery is used, except for the fight scene where Keanu grabs the pole and starts spinning, kicking faces. I found myself wishing for less stop-and-go action in the middle of a punch/kick/throw and more "holy &#*$!, Keanu just leaped into that guy's chest and made him blow up" action. But I admit the sheer number of agents after him in that big fight scene is pretty cool.
Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm go see the third movie. some of the questions are answered there.
i'm pretty bored of the matrix now, though. i expected everything to be answered by the end. there are far too many questions left hanging.
plus it just became boring.
Nov 24, 2003 12:09 pm That is why we watched two, we wanted to go to the theatre and see 3, but having never seen two deemed it kinda silly, so we went and rented two.
I have heard from many sources that 3 really sucked...
TheTincanbugsloppy dice, drinks twiceMember
Since: Aug 05, 2003
Nov 24, 2003 12:11 pm That's sad... The first movie is one of my all-time favorites. I should never have bought Reloaded... They should have ended the whole thing... :(
Nov 24, 2003 04:00 pm i just got tired of the way of it was all done, in the end. at first i was a fan of the "totally stylized" feel (bordering on cheesy)--i got it, and i got why they did it.
three movies worth of such a thing wore thin. sometimes i find myself imagining how the matrix would have been if it were treated realistically. better i think, even though it would end up sacrificing its sort of postmodern cultural commentary.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Nov 24, 2003 09:59 pm I guess in the end, 3 was exactly how it should have been. No one, not even the Oracle truly knows what Neo was. I guess thats OK, I didnt like being left hanging either but after dwelling on it for a bit. There is no way they could have ended it any other way. You simply know it over, Neo finished it. The scene at the end of the fight, (which I will not describe for those who havent seen it) tells you all you need to know. I think they did it that way on purpose, to give us something to think about. It lets you make your own conclusion. But I didnt realize that untill my son of all people tells me about 3 weeks after we saw it that he thinks he understands why they ended it that way. And after listening to him, I guess it ended the way it should have. You have to go back to the first and second movie, and remember some of the things that where said and done, and it doess make sense, sort of. So I guess I will just live with the fact that 3 kind of stunk and kind of didnt.
Nov 24, 2003 10:16 pm yeah, thats kind of how i feel. great action scenes, though. there were a bunch of nice moments. my favorite shot was the neo/trinity's ship breaking through the clouds for 3 seconds. expert! there was a lot of talk about the possibility of cheesy sunsets...but that was brilliant.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Nov 24, 2003 10:58 pm Heck ya, that was put in at the perfect time. The suspense and thrill for that few seconds was great.
Oh ya, Im with dB on the Trinity thing. I dont have a clue why, but she just has this kinda look that just well, ya know.
Nov 25, 2003 12:31 am trinity looks really hot in street clothes. carrie-ann moss, i mean. i have seen her get less attractive in the two sequels but she was hot in the first one. but if you watch the behind the scenes stuff, with her in street clothes...oo la la!
