compression trick
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Posted on May 17, 2003 02:57 am
stinkyjoe
Member Since: Mar 20, 2003
i remember reading about a technique that uses compression where the rhythm guitars will be dropped slightly when there is a lead or a vocal but i dont remember how to do this. if anyone could help me out with this technique, id appreciate it!
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juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
May 17, 2003 08:31 am Yeah - it's called ducking.
Basically what you need is a compressor with a 'Side Chain Input'. This technique is commonly used on TV for voice overs and also in hip-hop production (they side-chain the kickdrum's signal into the bass guitar recording.)
Run the rythm guitar signal through the compressor and as tho you were compressing it the normal way. Now run the vocal track's signal into the Side Chain Input of the compressor.
Set the Attack and Release settings appropriatly (the attack will determin who quickly the guitar signal ducks out and the release will determin how long it will take to return to it's original level when the side chain no longer has a signal. The Threshold and Ratio controls will do what you would expect them to usually do.
Most outboard compressors have a Side-Chain input including the Behringer Auto-Com and the dbX 266XL.
jues.
May 17, 2003 11:53 am jues, [quote]Run the rythm guitar signal through the compressor and as tho you were compressing it the normal way. Now run the rythm guitar's signal into the Side Chain Input of the compressor.
[/quote]
are you sure you mean to run the rhythm guitar through both the compressor in/out and the side chain?
i still havn't figured out how to use the side chain on my dbx 266xl, and the whole manual seems targetted at people who've "done it before" if you know what I mean. -j
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
May 17, 2003 11:00 pm doh!
God I should drink more coffee in the morning.
That was supposed to read:
Run the rythm guitar signal through the compressor and as tho you were compressing it the normal way. Now run the vocal's signal into the Side Chain Input of the compressor.
I've corrected my original post for the sake of logic :)
jues.
May 18, 2003 03:57 pm hey jues, or anyone, my compressor's sidechain is of the um... i guess it's called normalled or something variety. It's where they use (1)one TRS and the tip is the IN and the ring is the OUT. My Behringer MX802 board doens't support this does it?? Or can I simply input a signal on regular TS cable and just ignore getting an output back out of it?? This "ducking" may be useful if can get it working.
May 18, 2003 05:40 pm yea, im confused too. ive got the same compressor and ive got a couple of insert cables, but im not sure why it would use an insert cable or how to route it. the manual doesnt help too much either.
May 18, 2003 06:10 pm insert? is that what they're called?
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
May 18, 2003 09:34 pm TRS is what they are called - Tip, Ring Sleve - one stereo plug splits into 2 mono.
If your desk does not have insert points then you need to run the output of the soundcard into the compressor first and then the output of the compressor into the mixing desk.
As for sidechain signals, you are best sending these via an AUX send into the Side Chain Input on the comressor - this only requires a normal jack to jack cable.
May 18, 2003 10:04 pm ah i think i get. i'll try it out and if i get stuck i check back with you.
does it make sense now stinkyjoe?
May 19, 2003 01:25 am honestly, im still a bit confused, but im going to stop trying to understand it in theory and just mess around with what i think jues is talking about tommorow. i usually understand things in more of a "hands on" way than trying to figure it all out in my head without trying anything. so ill see how it goes tommorow. thanks for the help though, i think im getting closer to understanding it. this sidechain part of the compressor is just the most confusing thing.
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
May 19, 2003 08:13 am Think of the side-chain as a tool:
You have a bass guitar track and a kick drum track. You want it so that every time there is a kick drum hit, the bass guitar drops in the mix to give the kick signal more room.
This can either be achieved by manually pusing the fader up and down every time there is a kick (not exactly practical) or via side-chaining the kick drum signal into the bass recording.
Set up the comressor as follows:
Main Inputs: Bass Guitar Signal
Main Outputs: Effected Bass Guitar Signal (to Mixer / Soundcard Inputs)
Side-Chain Input: Kick Drum Signal.
Now what happens is the compressor will opperate as per usual - except because you have a signal present in the side-chain input, the compressor will no longer "look at the inputted signal for dynamic information", instead it will react off of the signal passed through the side chain input.
In this case that means that every time there is a kick drum hit, the compressor will react and do the specified amount of compression on the bass guitar signal that you have specified with the compressors controls (ratio and threshold).
I know it's a little confusing, just try it out (preferably this the example above) and it should make a little more sense.
jues.
May 19, 2003 07:41 pm you know, i read this thread this morning then went out and did my thing. and on one of the tracks in my mp3 player i could swear i heard the entire mix, with the exception of the vocal, ducking out whenever scott weiland sang. do people actually sidechain-compress entire songs this way?
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
May 19, 2003 10:56 pm Yep - sidechaining can be used for that effect, or that could quite easily be the result of "over compression" where the signal has been compressed so much that when the vocal track comes in (which is usually slightly louder than everything else in the mix) the volume of the backing track gets reduced to maintain the set threshold level to avoid clipping.
jues.
glynbMember
Since: Dec 16, 2002
May 21, 2003 11:07 am Yes I've noticed something like that when listening to the radio in the car. I thought it was just the reception fading, but I now think its compression either at the radio station or the radio mix sent to them?
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
May 21, 2003 12:53 pm Hehehe
It's compression alright - think of it this way.
During the mixing of a pop track compresison will have been used extensivly to make everything "sit at the front" of the mix.
Then during the mastering, compression will be used again to make everything as loud and punchy as possible.
Then the audio is transfered onto Minidisc for use at the radio station (lots of them use minidisc's for their audio purpouses due to the smaller size of the medium - minidisc compression (a-trac) relies on compression as well.
Then finally the radio-station itself will have a brickwall limiter to make sure everything is the same volume - as you can imagine, by this point the track has been so over compressed that you are bound to heard tonnes of compression artifacts.
jues.
May 21, 2003 01:09 pm i heard somewhere that by the time you hear the signal from the radio station it has been so compressed that there's less than 20 dB of dynamic range left in it compared to the 96 dB possible with a CD.
and I didn't realize compression as a signal processing effect had anything to do with minidisc file compression.
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
May 21, 2003 01:40 pm you know who is worse than radio stations when it comes to compression? CABLE STATIONS. if you watch tv at all and notice when the commercials switch from the standard fare to the local companies, the sound is absolutely unlistenable.
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
May 21, 2003 07:55 pm Yeah - it's done deliberatly, make the advert at loud as possible THEN YOU HAVE TO BUY THIS CRAP!!!!
ahem - sorry :)
May 21, 2003 09:08 pm Ads for "Menards" a home improvement store in the US, is the absolute WORST for over-maximized commercials! ARGH!
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
May 21, 2003 10:36 pm I dont know how wide the Menards adds are, but dB is right. They make some loudest most anoying adds on the tube. I am not a big TV watcher, but I know when it is on, you sure know when those adds come on. And the guys voice in the add is the most penatrating voice you will ever here.
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
May 21, 2003 10:47 pm And you both sure as hell know the brands :)
MinkusMazBane of All ExistenceMember
Since: Mar 27, 2003
May 22, 2003 12:12 am are the menards commercials still using the obnoxious female replacement for the obnoxious old guy with the big teeth? man, that guy looked vicious...
May 22, 2003 05:25 am Quote:
And you both sure as hell know the brands :)
Sad, ain't it...whether ya love 'em or hate 'em, ya know 'em!
