Jul 21, 2010 10:08 am Don't you have any PAD on your condenser mics?
Gain Structure for Acoustic Instruments
Posted on Jul 21, 2010 07:40 am
muzizman
Member Since: Jul 21, 2010
Hello All
I've been doing sound for a little while and have come to the realisation that my gain structure sucks. The instruments I am miking are mainly acoustic instruments from the middle east - flutes, stringed instruments (bowed and plucked) and drums.
My problem is, when I use dynamic mics for these instruments (sm58 on the flute, AKG d770 on the drum) I barely get them to meter and it sounds terrible when I turn the gain up too high. Using condensors helps a little but, if I use too many condensors I end up with squealling all over the place.
I guess my question is, is there a secret miraculous cure for weak signal coming from acoustic instruments? Any comments or tips would be greatly appreciated.
Mike
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Jul 21, 2010 10:08 am Don't you have any PAD on your condenser mics?
Jul 21, 2010 12:00 pm If you are getting squealing all over the place it leads me to believe you are monitoring through speakers in the same room instead of phones.
Also, I never expect my acoustic signals to be "that" hot when tracked. I almost always have to bring them up later.
Jul 21, 2010 04:04 pm You shouldn't be losing that much gain with a dynamic mic.
You might have to look at placement, other then turning up the gain. If the signal is very weak, try moving to a different location on the instrument.
How far away are you trying to mic your band from?
Jul 22, 2010 04:41 am With regards to pads on the condensors, won't i just have to introduce more gain to compensate the padding? Even with condensors I find that i get feedback way before I get the input level to where it should be.
The average mic placement is about 3 inches from the sound source it's as close as i can get without impeding on the playing.
I'll try experiment with mic placement but for soft instruments in general should I be considering moving to more condensors and hacking in with EQ or finding the sweet spot with dynamics or combinations.
thanks
Jul 22, 2010 08:23 am i think with things like flutes n such, its better to use specific types of mics. Like u usually see clip ons for solo wind instruments, that kind of locks them into place in terms of mic placement as with a standing mic u might be losing gain just through the movement of the player.
Shure has a tiny clip on condensor mic, its so small it doesnt really have feedback issues, its the kind they use on tv news reporters. Strings instruments could maybe use an acoustic guitar type pickup?
Or maybe if upgrading all ur mics isnt an optino maybe cnosider using ur condensors in more of a full band type sense? like say hanging them over and positioning so u get ur mix balance from teh placement more than the board.
Jul 22, 2010 11:45 am For clip on mics, you also get the sound vibrations traveling through the instrument, into the mic. Much better gain than through the air.
And, Welcome to the HRC.
Jul 22, 2010 01:23 pm Normally I don't get this issue with dynamics. But, sure. A condenser will give you that hotter signal.
I just have this feeling that something else is going on here to create your issue.
With quite bands. I find myself having to move the PA a little farther away from the mics. Just to try and create some headroom. Same with the monitors. But, also at the same token, I run the monitors about -10 dB down form what the artist wants.
It's ambient music. Not Rock and Roll. So, if someone wants a flute to be around 98 - 100 dB. Their a$$ better be playing that loud to begin with! To try and take a 68 dB signal, and jack it up to over 30 dB, just doesn't work in a live application. Not unless the PA is over 50' away form them, and there are no monitors.
Can you tell me what type of board that you are using? Also what brand of speakers, and monitors that you have. There could be some issue with horn pattern, or spacial relation going on to give you this much of a problem.
Jul 26, 2010 03:59 am Hi All
I'm using a Yamaha MG206 with the C115v speakers and the monitors are JBL MR800 (I think) 15".
I was doing a bit of experimenting with different mics, just using the headphones, to see how much gain i needed to get a decent signal into the desk. I was quite surprised as I needed the gain pots at about 2 o'clock with a SM58 using a flute. What I found was that I got lots of level, a pretty good sound but I was picking up my wife doing the dishes about 20 mtrs away. This makes me think if I hooked it up to amps and speakers it would turn into a nightmare.
Is this normal? Should I be running the mics into the desk this way then turn the amps down or is this going to be a bad sound out the other end?
cheers
Jul 26, 2010 04:25 am I think it would sound bad if ur just trying to get a strong signal for everything before ur amp. It'd probably be better to get a good mix, with everythign sitting well eq'd and such, at low gain settings. Everythign doesnt have to sound brilliant, it just has to be there.
And then u can turn up ur mains, or maybe throw a compressor over ur outs. U dont need every last instrument to have amazing gain to mix them well, that will only create problems.
Jul 26, 2010 05:03 pm Thanks for the input and pearls of wisdom. I now have much experimenting and pondering to do.
cheers
Jul 26, 2010 05:37 pm I would say 2oclock is about right for the pre and yes... wife doing dishes (or my 3yo doing long jumps upstairs) definitely is picked up. With drums and stuff it's no big but when I track acoustics or vocals I usually have to wait until they are out of the house.
If playing through an amp, you mic the amp. If micing the instrument having it also come through an amp will eventually lead to feedback as it creates the never ending loop of yuck. Recording anything be it singing, acoustics instruments (drums, flute) or electric guitar you would not want any signal coming through speakers for monitoring unless the instrument (and the mics) being tracked are in a seperate room. For home recording folks you definitely stick with headphones while tracking and use your monitors for playback/mixing.
So yeah, kick the wife out or ask her to be quiet (not reccomended), throw on some phones and track at 2oclock ;)
Jul 26, 2010 08:17 pm Guys, remember that this is under the live sound reinforcement. So, he's not recording, he's playing out live.
So, with a 58, and the artist right on top of the mic, you need to turn the gain up to 2 O'clock to get the gain to 0, or unity gain?
When I say right on top of the mic, I mean the flute actually touching the 58. When I run the Jazz festivals in small clubs, that is how I have them. If your worried about wind noise, use a wind screen. I usually have them blow over top of the mic to cut down on the noise.
Live gain is little different then recording. One thing that you can do, is to run the outputs at unity. And put the faders at unity as well. Then start to turn the gain up until is starts to feed back ever so slightly. Find the offending frequency in your EQ. Pull it down about -3 dB. Then start to turn the gain up again slowly. At a certain point, multiple frequencies will start to feedback. Here is when you want to back the gain off a bit. Maybe -3 or -6 dB.
Now it's up to your artist to get either closer to the mic or farther away to get the volume that he or she wishes. Trying to push your gain any higher will just lead to more issues with your system.
Now, if your trying to record at the same time............. Welcome to the wonderful world of board recordings! This is why they never turn out right. The room doesn't allow for the great sound the you get in your headphones. Why? Because the room speakers have to deal with the physical limitations of the room. While your headphones are (For the most part) a controlled environment.
Jul 27, 2010 06:13 pm I was thinking he meant live at first until he mentioned the wife doing dishes coming through the mic which confused me.
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