Pan Problems
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Posted on Mar 17, 2010 11:30 pm
pipedreams
Marijuana Czar
Member Since: Oct 01, 2009
hey ppl ive been trying to sit my tracks and use panning ala "prince" where you can hear **** jump at you from the left then from the right ect.
but using the channel panner on cubase and my other daw's just doesnt seem to get there. i dl a vst called pan handler which shows u where you're putting things in a surround sound field but its just not workin for me
is it about how i compress tracks when i position em, u know to make em sound more real? im lost, what do u do?
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Mar 17, 2010 11:35 pm The best way to achieve "3D space and distance" is to actually utilize 3D space and distance when tracking.
Long story - But the short of it is that great rooms are great for a reason. You can pan all day, but if everything is close-mic'd, you're panning in a very "two dimensional" field. Certain judicious use of early reflections and EQ can "mimic" that distance factor, but few things replicate it as well as - well, distance.
Tim NUh, at least one more time . . .Member
Since: Feb 07, 2007
Mar 17, 2010 11:43 pm Do you mean an "auto-panning" effect? Or a swell-like effect that starts, say, left and moves right? I typically use automation (pan automation), or a plug-in that "ping-pongs" a reverb or delay from one side to the other. I'm pretty sure that compression has little if anything to do with the stereo field. What do you mean by "make 'em sound more real?" Are you talking about general panning technique as well?
cruxTypo SzarMember
Since: Jul 04, 2002
Mar 17, 2010 11:45 pm I think were gonna need a sample of the stuff u want to jump out and a bit more info, coz the panning really doesnt have much effect on the intensity of the sound. If something is panned 100 percent to one side it will be using that speaker fully that should really be the only thing effects the energy of the sound.
Things like compression and EQ will also effect the intensity obviously if ur compressor is attacking too quickly it might cut out the impact of the sound, but again u have to make sure the sound has impact to begin with.
Tim NUh, at least one more time . . .Member
Since: Feb 07, 2007
Mar 17, 2010 11:49 pm MM, what are the advantages to recording a vocal in a booth? Is that an attenpt to control the environment to stop unwanted reverb, or is it simply a way to isolate the vocalist in a "live" recording situation, where other players are semi-isolated in one large studio? I hope I'm not wandering too far off topic here.
Mar 18, 2010 12:41 am I only ever used the booth for rough tracks or when the artist wanted really dry (think "Hard to Handle") vocals. Otherwise, one of the live rooms - With gobos, of course - Bigger is almost universally better when properly controlled.
"Booths" (as in "small, closet-sized spaces") are notoriously horrific places to record when not constructed and treated properly (throwing foam up all over the walls in a closet is not properly constructed or treated and generally only works well in the movies). But they make great places for noisy gear.
Getting it sort of on-topic, close up in a dead space (like a good booth), you can add synthetic reflections - But the difference between that and actually capturing those reflections in a space from a few feet away changes everything...
Mar 18, 2010 01:30 am What I'm talking about is when I pan stuff, it's very L - M - R.
Panning 2 things to the L side results in a shitty sounding tune.
I wanna be able to pan like L1-L2-L3-M-R3-R2-R1.
MM seemed to understand, so then how do electronic music makers do it? There must be some kind of software right? Like pan-handler..
And what I meant by the compression is that I wanted each track/sound to be defined in it's surround space.
cruxTypo SzarMember
Since: Jul 04, 2002
Mar 18, 2010 03:55 am Before u dismiss ur panning as ineffective, try this out:
www.hometracked.com/2008/...-monitor-tests/
to make sure ur monitoring system actually is showing u the panning u need. If ur system isnt set up correctly, even if the sound is in the right spot, u wont hear it as it should be.
Mar 18, 2010 06:10 am Thanks Crux, that's a handy site to bookmark
I used the 5 white noise burst test and it sounds all good to me.
Idk what the deal is
cruxTypo SzarMember
Since: Jul 04, 2002
Mar 18, 2010 06:52 am
I dont know if this will help but wat i like to do, even with electronic samples is switch my output to mono, line everything up in the center and then adjust their faders so that they all sit on top of eachother nicely. Basically if something is suppose to be more forward i make it loudest and on top, and then work down the line, this might also require some EQ. when done i start to pan, which in mono with these new DAWs will result in a volume change rather than a pan field change. Adjust to preserve the results from ur line up. and when u hit stereo for some reason the spacing is just "right". It jsut really take out the variable of different speakers and space and reduces it to a matter of volume and eq, which to me atleat is a bit easier to perceive. When u finally go back to stereo I find that my mixes sound way bigger coz everythign has had its space carved out the way it needs most, not jsut by panning but by leveling and eq as well.
Mar 19, 2010 06:31 am your right about it just increasing the volume of one side.. :@
so how do i defeat this demon?
i might need an audio exorcist
Mar 19, 2010 08:21 am Well for one, if you don't have a good setup with your monitors, i find headphones realllly effective. Especially if you're talking about using it as more of an effect. Other than that idk, i can definitely feel a few "sectors" when i pan stuff. 100L feels way more distant than 80L, 50L, 20L and then back to center. They all have their own feel to me. Wish i could tell you why yours don't. Why don't you upload a sample of your song and describe the "effect" you need to achieve again?
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Mar 19, 2010 08:25 am i'd like to help here but im not entirely sure what it is you need pipe.
i will tell you how i pan things at least.
I have my drums where the program puts them by default, i keep bass in the centre, guitars i do 4 rythym tracks for layering and i pan 2 of them, Left 80, and left 30 and the same on the other side. I make sure i can change each guitar track's eq and or guitars and amp settings so i dont get too much phase cancellation.
sounds fat to me, i dont have any probs with that method.
Mar 19, 2010 09:13 am After stuffing around for an hour i can get good panning now as far as positioning.
But for example i have this small guitar loop that has a harmonic synth effect on it, and when i pan it to L, it's like it's increasing the left side of the track, not moving it.
Even though it's a mono track
Mar 19, 2010 09:24 am Quote:
MM seemed to understand, so then how do electronic music makers do it? There must be some kind of software right? Like pan-handler..
That's where the common physics of sound come into play -- You have to mimic those physics using EQ (high end rolls off much more quickly than low end) and early reflections (where you may need to add some of that high end back again).
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Mar 19, 2010 08:41 pm not sure man, could be mostly to do with the effect youre using.
make sure youre definately using a mono track. even maybe open another mono track and move the waveform. sometimes cubase plays funny little games. trust me ive been thru it before.
not to say thats what the issue is though.
Mar 19, 2010 09:54 pm early reflections, is it just me or does that sound cool lol
www.madtracker.org/plugin...ment&from=0
i found more pan-vst's, will this do the early reflection/eq stuff for me? or are these just another version of cubases channel panner
Mar 20, 2010 01:24 am Auto panners and such just tend to pan...
Mar 20, 2010 01:53 am now now there's no need for the patronising "..."
i guess ill just use them, seeing as i have no idea how to eq/early reflections, i still think that there would be some software that would do it. otherwise most people on this site arnt getting good panning, right?
arghg i'll figure it out somehow, it's crucial to the songs i wanna make that's all.
Mar 20, 2010 02:46 am Panning is just panning - Left to right. Autopanners pan things left to right "automatically" -- Which is fine if that's what you're looking for. But panning (or autopanning, which is just another "2D" effect) isn't going to affect the sense of space and depth.
Mar 20, 2010 07:31 am ok i see the difference now, but the way i worded it, i meant panning with space and depth, thought that was obvious.
mwahahahah, I knew it!
Rayspace 2.91, does everything i need.
So if anyone wants to bring up their panning standards ( coz no one suggested any software, so im guessing no one uses it ) use rayspace, it has a 3d view of the room acoustics, and a whole bunch of features i am yet to figure out how to use, (scans for guide)
Thanks for your help anyway guys, much appreciated
cruxTypo SzarMember
Since: Jul 04, 2002
Mar 20, 2010 09:44 am not to be that guy, but rayspace is more of a reverb unit than panner. This is not a greater-than-though response, but i just noticed u may still have some misunderstanding as to panning that may in the future put u up against a wall again.
If you have two speakers panning can only move ur sound between the two, it cant move them through space, becoz that is literally an illusion. Something sounding further than something else, more forward, popping out, or slowly fading into the background r all effects achieved through eqing and reverb and other things and are not actually panning.
a plug like rayspace just has an all in one solution where when u tell it to put a sound "here" it does all the necessary eqing and reverb adjustments to create the illusion. Even stereo wideners, despite their name, dont actually do any panning, they use a kind of phase cancellation between the soudns on each side to once again create an illusion of a further spread.
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Mar 20, 2010 10:00 am tis true.
phase cancel isnt a dirty word.
Mar 20, 2010 07:26 pm ooo i agree man, i jumped the gun. but still.. this is closest thing to what i need. if i could take the reverb part out, it'd work for me. coz i could blend it with the normal channel panning, but erghh roo reverby.
my search continues.
still no one has any software to suggest? im very suprised at that
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Mar 20, 2010 09:12 pm hey man, post a snipet of this reverb thingy on yer song, give us a demo.
Tim NUh, at least one more time . . .Member
Since: Feb 07, 2007
Mar 20, 2010 09:54 pm Well, the tricky thing is using panning and reverb and delays together to achieve the kind of "space" you are looking for. It can be difficult, and many times it is downright counter-intuitive. You want a voice, say, to sound reverby, in the "distance," and off to the left and above the lead vocal. How do you do it? Sometimes to get an isolated sound off to one side that seems ethereal is to go easy on the reverb and use a delay where the "tail" whips across the stereo field and decays "far" from where it started. More than once I've piled on the cathedral reverb to get a distant effect, only to render it as mush once its in the mix. I wound up using a delay to get an effect I was sure needed reverb only, and plenty of it . . . but if you really want to hear how a skilled engineer used reverb to it's full effect (and in 1972, with relatively primitive stuff like plates), pipedreams, get a copy of Yes' landmark recording "Close To The Edge." Put it on a good stereo system, and get in between the speakers. The producer, Eddie Offord, created a sonic space that is breath-taking, to say the least. And for something completely different? Try Nelly Furtado's "Like A Bird." Listen to that on headphones. Or maybe Lindsey Buckingham's "Trouble." That is all, and Godspeed with the panning.
Mar 27, 2010 07:28 pm aight ill put up a sample in a min
but how do i use reverbs n delays to get the space?
where do i start? anyone have a good article on it?
Mar 27, 2010 07:57 pm Well. First off lets start from square one. Maybe i'm just not the most intuitive reader. But i'm a little confused on what exactly you're looking for. Are you looking for a "special effect"? Such as the sound changing drastically from one speaker to the next wooshing past your head. Or do you just want just big "spacious" mixes? Describe in detail what you need. Don't retell what you've tried already. Just the final product you're looking for.
Just trying to clear things up before i give advice or listen to a sample. Also, if possible, direct us to a youtube video of a song with the outcome you are trying to achieve, so we have a reference point of both where you're at now, and where you want to be.
Mar 28, 2010 08:20 am thanks for everyone's input, we didn't rly get anywhere.. but still.. it killed some time till i found the solution myself.
which was: a stereo-shaper plug in that comes with fl studio 9 xxl, does the "space and depth" **** that i need it to, i suggest checking it out, the plugin i mean, its really easy to use and i cant see any problems with it yet, but im sure ill find one if i look hard enough, so shhhhh!
still interested in learning how to do it myself with reverbs n delays though...
Tim NUh, at least one more time . . .Member
Since: Feb 07, 2007
Mar 29, 2010 08:16 pm Re: "How do I use reverbs and delays to get the space . . . " Experiment. Record what you want, and then just start experimenting, using delay first, or reverb, then both. MM mentioned the space you record in, and that's quite important. I recently recorded an acoustic guitar in a bathroom, with the mic up by the ceiling, in one corner, the guitar "facing" towards it, though of course 4 and a half feet down and away. I wound up with natural reverb that needed no tweaking on the demo. In other words, where normally I would add a touch of delay, my room-induced reverb sounded fine. This arpeggiated chord I panned almost hard right; the strummed chord (the same chord) which I recorded "normally" in the bathroom I panned almost hard left. To this was added a delay to make it sound like the main rhythmic acoustic guitar, which is slightly left-centered in the mix. It all sounds good so far, with just vocals and electric guitar. The vocal? That's a whole other story . . . .
cruxTypo SzarMember
Since: Jul 04, 2002
Mar 30, 2010 02:07 am I recommend that instead of reading up on effects and tweaking u read up on the reality of things like reverb, how ppl hear space and wat delays signal to ur brain. The point of the effects were to create illusions for listeners, things like space and depth. Once u know wat causes such illusions, all the functions presented to u on a reverb or delay plug will become much more intuitive.
Example, sound travels roughly 1 meter per 1 millisecond. One most standard reverbs ull see a predelay that can be calibrated by milliseconds. Ur ear more or less knows how fast sound travels naturally, so if ur reverb is delayed from the dry source by say 10 milliseconds, ur ear and brain will immediately think that the source is in a room where the walls are 10 meters away from it.... roughly
Mar 29, 2010 07:43 pm 
