Encoding

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Member Since: Apr 09, 2002

Whats up people, today is the first time in a long time i have been able to visit the site:(
but to the problem, k, i've got a song layed down, it sounds great to me (in sonarXL), until i encode it to wma or mp3, or even wave. At that point, the mix sounds COMPLETELY different then what it sounded like in sonar, which also means it sounds like crap. Also, the eq settings are way off, but i realize this could be individual media player and reciever settings. My main concern is the encoding part. I have tried every option, every bit depth. everything and its STILL DOING IT!!!!!! SHOOT ME....PLEASE!!!!! Does anyone of u super smart peeps know what i can do to make my song sound like it sounded in sonar?

thanks......marc

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Member
Since: Apr 05, 2002


Jun 24, 2002 10:47 am

Part of the problem, and I am sure others will agree with this, is that when encoding into mp3 or any other format that reduces the size of the file, the sound is going to be changed. Usually the highs and the lows are what is most noticeable. Also, are you listening to the encoded track on the same speakers that you mixed it on? I know that if I mix on my monitors and then play it through my little PC speakers that it doesn't sound the same at all. What I usually have to do is mix on the monitor speakers and then listen to it through a bunch of different headphones. That will give me a better overall mix. Just some things you can try.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jun 25, 2002 12:14 am

Make darn sure you maximize, or normalize your final mix. This will insure that your audio will compress at maximum loudness. And what I have tried in the past is to boost the bottom and high end a bit B4 converting to mp3 or wma. This sometime's can help, but not always.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 25, 2002 06:32 am

Well, for starters, mp3 and wma and all those others always sound crappy...so that is no big shock, or crappier than wav anyway. You can't shrink a file by 10 times and expect it to sound the same, it just won't happen.

Have you tried using a different app than SOnar, just get a demo of something and give it a try, Noize hates me for this, but I think Sonar is a lousy soundign program personally, so I would be curious what Cubase or Vegas would sound like with your music.

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


Jun 25, 2002 11:41 pm

Wow! I don't get the [.wav] problem that is a linear sampling system. The MP3 thing is a "just is" situation. MP3's are a "psycho-acustic" encoding method. Our German friends have decided that they have determined how we hear. Some of what you hear from an MP3 is mono some stereo. Different frequencies and different levels are represented by different sample rates and depth. They use a "bit reserve" just in case a sample needs a few more bits. I guess the rest just falls into a bit bucket! Results (humble opinion) inferior reproduction with highly unpredictable results.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jun 26, 2002 09:36 pm

Ok Walt, nail it down and ship it. In a brief adder to that, mp3 and the other format's all subtract the high's and low's they think we don't need to hear. Then the proceed to squish it even more, (bit wise, like Walt said) and you end up with the sonic equivalant of a slightly warn out cassette tape.

If you read the post again, you will see he state's it sound' fine in Sonar, but like crap as an mp3, wma or wave after being mixed down. This mean's that the track's are not properly leveled, and when they are loaded for mix down, the combining of all the audio together is causing digital clipping. This is what happen's when to much digital info is squished together. The track's all need to be mixed at lower level's, this means' leave some headroom. Then after they are mixed down to 2 track's. Then you can normalize them to bring the level's back up.

I have had it happen B4, so I speak from experiance.

And it can happen in Cubase, Vegas, Sonar or any other program that allow's more then 4 track's of audio to be recorded and mixed down.

As far as Sonar sounding lousey. The program's all mentioned by myself and dB all encode in the exact same format's. There is no sonic differance in the wave quality of the upper crust of these software DAW's. The problem's encountered with noize and the like are caused by the software not playing well with certain audio interface's and so on. Driver incompatability is also a big contributer to crappy sound from these program's.

I have compared noise level's and matched wave form's and all the stuff I could think of to check these program's against one another. Mainly for the sake of picking one and sticking with it, as I am tired of paying through the nose for upgrade's for all the major program's.

The only thing that effected my choice of program was added goodie's and the cost. They are both sonicly identical, and both capable of recording at very high quality setting's. At the rate these guy's are upgrading their product's I would go broke keeping up with it all. So I want a program that is professional and capable of quality all the way through. My weapon of choice that work's with my gear is Sonar. I used to like Cubase, but they fell behind, and waited to see what Sonar did, and then they just released what they thought would be competative, by adding some stuff that was allready available and hicking the upgrade price farther up then Sonar. Thus looking the part of a better piece of art.

Sorry for the rant, but that is the sonic truth. Better is not alway's more costly, it is just matching your gear for the best result's and being carefull not to pile to much stuff into that little box.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 26, 2002 10:03 pm

OK, Noize, I guess I shouldn't say the sound is lousy, that is not exactly accurate, the raw sound in Sonar is fine. What I dislike about Sonar is the way it processes plugin effects, it is far more sensitive to gain and the quality of the effect is harder to get to my perosnal satisfaction, it peaks to fast and is a pain in the butt to track the chain and see where the problems are coming from. I have never had this same problem with Vegas, Cubase or Nuendo.

I know you know that Noize, as we have talked about, but I wanted to clarify my statement for the benefit of anyone else here reading my comments...bottom line is for me, at the end of the day I end up with better sound in less time by using any of the above mentioned apps rather than Sonar...regardless of where exactly the problem lies...

As far as wav encoding being wav encoding across the board, regardless of app, I don't believe that is true at all, I can use any 2 CD rippers and set them to rip to the exact same same spec, that in know way means that they will sound the same, everything is subject to programming quality issues...hell, a Sound Blaster is 16-bit recording, and if I use my Echo at 16-bit my echo will still sound way better...

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jun 27, 2002 09:53 pm

Yes it will, as will my Delta. I agree about the coding in Ripper's, that is varied. Again it is a matter of which you got used to. I have used CakeWalk/Sonar from the beggining so I found my way around the pluggin issue and learned which gain's to set were. I disliked the clumsy feel of Cubase, but did like the processing and the channel strip, untill they messed with it.

And when I speak of app's that code the wave form, I speak of the top dog's, Sonar, Stiengerg, Sonic Foundry, and a couple of other's. They have put quality into their program's.

That said, it is really a matter of which app. you learned the deepest. I myself have gone deep into CakeWalk/Sonar so I know the tweak's. I had the same probelm in Cubase that you speak of having in CakeWalk. But after twiddling, I found where I muffed up. But I still did not get to where I should have been.

And to all you out there that might think we are argueing shamelessly. These little tidbit's will give you some insight into how to go about choosing an app. And when you do, it will not be something you learn how to run over night. These program's take some time to learn. So have patient's and if all else fail's. Do something dB and I rarely have time to do, READ THE MANUAL!!!

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 27, 2002 10:47 pm

ah, manuals, shmanuals...just turn knobs and see what happens :-)

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jun 27, 2002 11:38 pm

I couldn't agree more. And hey look, I done turned into an Enginer and didn't even notice.

Yippy for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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