Loudness?
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Posted on Mar 07, 2009 12:03 am
syrettezombie
Novocaine Records Engineer
Member Since: Feb 21, 2009
When i get through with a mix that sounds thick and great, way is the volume or relative loudness so much softer than a purchased cd? I know that the big time guys use a tons of compressions on their cds, but how do i get my mixes to sound just as loud, without clippig or distorting?
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Mar 07, 2009 12:55 am It's basically part of the mastering process. The smallest part, but still a part (many confuse "mastering" with "getting it loud" and while final volume is determined during mastering, it's not the cornerstone of the process).
Getting mixes "just as loud" is another story... A monkey with a limiter can make any recording as loud as any other. How the mix reacts to such abuse is another story. Occasionally (especially with a great mix with tons of headroom from the start) all it takes is a bit of limiting (but those occasions are few). And even the greatest mastering engineer on the planet, with the best possible monitoring and the cleanest possible signal paths with the most obscene amounts of usable headroom will be limited by the potential of the mixes he's given.
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Mar 07, 2009 01:02 am well without going too deep into it,
you know what compression is yeah?
well basicly you wanna tame the peaks of your song with compression as much as you can without going too nuts.
then you can use the make up gain on the compressor to get your overall volume up to where you require it. i think -3dB is roughly it. this way your cd player wont peak out like you mentioned.
youre better off doing a mixdown and then importing that mix, into a new project to get the vol right though.
but back tracking a bit, awlays making sure before you do a mixdown, zero all your faders by clicking the fader sliders, and then play the song right thru making sure it does not peak anywhere.
im assuming you keep all your tracks around -19db? thats a safe vol for tracking and mixing.
then you can go ahead and use your compression to get your vol. in a new project.
the big time guys use compression and "limiting" to get it as loud as possible.
comp. pushes down the peaks, then you can use the limiter to stop it going over a certain volume. but if you dont do the comp. right to start with, or you limit it too hard, the limiter will squash down the sound causing it to fluctuate in vol. or just downright cut things off.
hence needing enough headroom.
and here i was saying i wouldnt get into it.
that's my understanding of it, i, by no means am an expert though, and proly dint get my point across as good a some here can for sure.
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Mar 07, 2009 01:04 am when i said zero the faders i meant zero the "peak level" numbers of that track.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 07, 2009 08:15 pm I wish it was like the old days. No one worried about how ****** loud the damn record was. Just if it sounded good or not.
What the hell happened to those days? Why does every person on the planet want to simply crush the ****** life out of their music so it as LOUD as the ****** music they can buy in the store?
LOUD is really not the whole point of making music.
End of rant
Mar 09, 2009 12:54 am hey noize
i'm in a grunge/punk band, and i hate ****in corperate fat cats to the grave, i dig music made by people with s*** they need to get off their chest, s*** they cant bottle up, s*** that'll lead em back to the bottle or needle again, at least in my case,
my music is from the heart and soul and all i want in the end is a great mix that shows that, and shows that of all the other bands i record, the only reason i asked the question, is because there are people out there who think that matters "why doesnt it sounds like that cd!?"
i personally dont mind reaching for that volume know when i wanna hear that solo come in
didn't mean to rant back, just thought i should defend myself, thanks for the other posts though, deon and massive, those actually helped my question
Mar 09, 2009 07:31 am Share one with me, Noize.
<clinks glass>
Ahhhh
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Mar 09, 2009 12:35 pm My mixes come close, but are never commercial volume. Now due to some restraint on my part thanks to Massives' blogs my mixes have much more headroom.
I get my songs limited to the point where maybe a few seconds of the song total are actually compressed by the limiter.
Don't record to hot (some signals will look unusable even - My OH's for example show next to nothing on the waveform but are plenty loud), mix as clean as you can (eq everyone a happy place) and you will have a much better chance at obtaining loudness.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 09, 2009 06:06 pm With ya there Herb,
I hear ya zombie, indeed.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 09, 2009 08:50 pm And just so ya know, I wasn't ranting on you. Just the corp. mentality that created the need for everyone to smash the **** out of their mix so its as loud as possible.
When I get a client that wants it like that I try my hardest to show them that if they leave a little life in it and simply twist the knob as you stated when they want it louder.
SO many people these days think that distortion you hear when its loud is what its supposed to sound like. I take them aside and play some old school metal like MotorHead and crank it up. That is what loud is supposed to sound like. You can hear everything clearly.
So ya zombie, no ranting on you in particular. Sorry if I gave that impression.
Mar 09, 2009 11:21 pm I really do wish "they" would go to some reasonable "standard" -- It worked so well for the film industry (and honestly, I thought it would flop like a fish out of water).
As bad of an idea I think it is to "standardize" levels, it's just soooooo out of hand - I couldn't have imagined the damage people are doing - to their music, to their ears, to their gear, to their speakers - Not even just a decade ago.
Mar 10, 2009 06:01 am It's the same way with televisions. Most people think the colors should be turned up louder than normal.
Every time I buy a TV, I have to customize the settings because the factory levels are set too high. It's not me; I've had television engineers tell me the same thing.
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Mar 10, 2009 06:06 am speaking of loudness, and i know its already come up before, and and i dont wanna jack the thread...but, for some stupid reason i bought the new metallica album without listening to it first and it is sooo peaking out.(as we all know)
i heard it was bad, but dint think to that extent.
they should be ******* ashamed of themselves for letting that crap be released.
dunno what they are trying to do but to me, it just sounds like they made a big **** up in the studio.
ok. resume.
Mar 10, 2009 11:25 am It's horrible. And this time (although the listening public doesn't know anything about it), it wasn't the mastering guy...
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Mar 10, 2009 11:36 am I blame Lars for everything bad about Metallica :)
Mar 10, 2009 11:37 am I am sure Hetfield's enormous ego has nothing to do with it.
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Mar 10, 2009 01:16 pm Hehe, I'm just a Lars hater.
Mar 10, 2009 01:17 pm He is hateable
J-botByte-MixerMember
Since: Dec 04, 2007
Mar 10, 2009 07:25 pm BAHAHAHAHAHAhahahaha!
er -cough- yeah I'm done. That clip took me straight back to my '01/02 years at UNF. Haven't heard that album, and ya know what, from all I've heard from other people, I don't really want to. Ya know, my tracks aren't as loud as the "industry blah blah" either, and I don't fracking care. Music is made to be (hello!) listened to, and enjoyed. Sure, some people may try to argue that the uber-loud-super-duper-thump-your-***-kill-your-speakers-noise-pollutant may be an artform. I call those people deaf.
Mar 10, 2009 09:28 pm real metallica fans dont care if it is too loud....serious what metallica fan has gone 'that music is too loud'?
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Mar 10, 2009 10:41 pm ...the one that's ever put a limiter on the main bus of a project and realized that turning it to max reduction doesn't actually sound good...
Mar 11, 2009 08:55 am It's come down to this.
The original photo was of an actual bilge pump switch. Seemed appropriate for the job.
Yea, Herb's got too much time on his hands, yahder yahder...
J-botByte-MixerMember
Since: Dec 04, 2007
Mar 11, 2009 10:29 am Well, let's look on the bright side too. Every bloke who visits these forums and gets a hard knock to the cranium on why loud !== better is another bloke pointed in the right direction, and a step towards better quality music. Seriously, with the engineers that frequent these forums, we've got some good heads together here. I look at HRC as being the W3C of the studio world. The methods and techniques on these forums are the "right" way to do it, and I don't see why the principals here shouldn't be a standard of sorts. I mean a lot of it is common sense. If I have a question on how to do something, much like W3C/W3Schools when I'm working with PHP, I'll pop over to HRC, do some reading, and then apply what I learn. Granted there's usually a little experimentation involved, but that's half the fun ;)
Creative liberties aside, there's a right way to do things....and then there's Metallica.
Yeah I had to get one more bash in.
-J
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Mar 11, 2009 10:53 am Quote:
real metallica fans dont care if it is too loud....serious what metallica fan has gone 'that music is too loud'?
Real Metallica fans quit listening after Justice for all.
But yeah, google it online and you will find plenty of people who think it sounds like doo doo. Just because someone does not like the recording doesn't make them any less of a fan.
And also, you are trying to compare "I have a 100,000 Watt stereo" loud vs. "I just limited the **** out of this" loud, two total different meanings. If I want something really loud, I just turn up my stereo.
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Mar 11, 2009 11:04 am Quote:
If I want something really loud, I just turn up my stereo.
Yup, that pretty much sums up the pointlesness to the loudness wars! Quote of the day, I tell ya.
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Mar 11, 2009 04:10 pm Cap'n Tripps,
"Real Metallica fans quit listening after Justice for all."
abso-firkin-lutley!
Mar 11, 2009 04:18 pm Kill em all was the greatest album. Then they grew beards, stopped using marshalls, cut their hair and turned into money hungry metrosexuals.
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Mar 11, 2009 06:11 pm I will not argue kill em all, brutal raw and shredding. I think my favorite is MOP though. The slow chunk of "thing that should not be", thick n sweet.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 11, 2009 07:36 pm Tripps, that is exactly the point. We are raising a generation that thinks that should not be needed. Turning it up. It should simply be loud and crunchy without moving to turn the volume up.
Every player and meter in all software or hardware is calibrated together here. I can put on Mathew Sweet - Girlfriend and it rides just nicely at the same place no matter what player I use. So for me to look and see who is smashing the **** out of something is easy. And that new CD along with many others just rams the meters past were its comfy for me. Many just ride into the yellow slightly. Metalica on the other hand actually has hit the red. or in other words OVER LOAD!
Nuff said.
Mar 11, 2009 11:59 pm this is way to funny, i'm come back to my post and it turned into a metallica bash, the funniest part is, just yesterday my band got interviewed for a college magazine, and we talked about the same thing, ****ing metallica and what the hell happened to them,
i'm into music that's raw as hell, kill em all was raw, then after justice started with the hiding of the bass lines, the black album what the **** happened there? then the haircuts, then the metallica video game, jesus it goes on and on
i do love good on tunes that are dirty and grungy sounding, but clean at the same time, you know like Bleach by nirvana or pretty much anything sub pop released before grunge died, it was in your face dirty *** music, but everything came through, that's all i'm trying to do, specially since i'm in a "grunge" band as we've been called, and specially since i record "grunge" or punk bands
thanks for the help up top, i'll try it out to make the guys who really want that crap happy, as for my songs and the bands i record that i actually care about, i'll stick to the way i've been doing it
Dematrixhttp://www.reverbnation.com/2ndgMember
Since: Nov 27, 2007
Mar 12, 2009 12:28 am i just reckon Metallica are too lazy now to play heavy ****, so they just play softcore pop, using Reinbacker's, strats and a new age plastic pop drum kit.
then try and heavy it up by smashing the face off it.
well it sure sounds that way in this album.
In their defence, (dont ask me why)
I think possibly playing the same music for X amount of years will send you off in different directions trying to do different, or create something different never ever heard before.
ya dont have to **** up a perfectly good working metal band to do that though, just do a freaking side proji man geez.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 12, 2009 07:34 pm By the way Herb. That pic is now my new desktop on the surfbox. Probly put it on the studio box as well as print a high rez photo of it and install it in box on top of one of the racks. That should draw some attention me thinks.
Mar 12, 2009 10:55 pm Noize, that one sucks. There's a better version in your mailbox.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 13, 2009 06:58 pm Thanx man, you are today's hero of hero's.
I have to get either Gimp or P-Shop installed so I can play with pictures again.
