recording/producing metal
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Posted on Jun 20, 2002 12:06 pm
LIFESIZEJIM
Member Since: Jun 20, 2002
i'm a first timer here so let me get the basics out of the way. i play gtr in a metal band called lifesize located in texas. we sound like a cross between tool/7dust/alice in chains. we have a full length cd out and are about to start recording our second effort. our current disc sounds pretty good. good separation and good levels and all but it still sounds kinda bland/flat/generic. we will probably record this time on a mackie hard disc set up. i wish i could find recording/producing tips by producer terry date but i haven't found any as of yet so maybe you guys can help so... 1)what can we do to the final mix to really make it slam your face maybe add overall fx or dip the over all eq? are there any standard pro techinques for metal? i like the way panteras or even godsmacks cds sound huge and alive. thanks for any help or tips you guys share!
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Jun 20, 2002 12:24 pm you should look through our tips section, there is plenty of great info in there...as a rule just get it as loud as you can without clipping and as far as EQ goes, geogre wrote an awesome article called "stupid EQ tricks" that really gives some great info on the use of an EQ and what frequencies do what...
Welcome to the community, we are a helpful group here, as you have more specific needs we can help you better, but there are some great general pointers all over the recording tips section of this site.
Jun 20, 2002 02:16 pm Thanks man! I'm really looking for heavy metal recording/producing. I'll check out those areas you mentioned. Too bad you guys didn't have a section on your site that included tips/tricks from pro producers..if that would be possible.
Jun 20, 2002 02:23 pm What is your definition of pro? I have been professional mastering and co-producing several artist from all over the US plus a couple outside of the US for a few years, and Noize2u, another major contributor here has been doing sound design and mixing for many, many years, like over 20 years...easily...and then there is george, who hasn't been around much lately, not sure why, but he has spent half of his life in a studio...seriously...if you know other pro's that would like to donate tips and other articles we would be more than happy to post them.Just because you haven't seen our names on any of your CD's does not mean we are not pro's. I good chunk of Noize's and my own income comes from our studios. By my definition that is professional.
Much of what I have done has been Heavy Metal, and really, whether coutry western or heavy metal it's all music, and you want to get the best out of it...it's just that each kind has it's own edge to tune. It all works in the same human frequency spectrum just some sound better with some music styles then others...
Jun 20, 2002 02:46 pm oooo..didn't mean to ruffle your feathers there guy. so i guess your in the same bucket with steve albini, mutt lange, terry date, etc?according to your definition of pro i could be considered a profesional guitarist...take a look at my bands bio and were we play and etc. just because i have been doing this for years and yadda yadda and have done this and that doesn't put me in the same 'pro' league as dimebag, van halen, rhoads, hetfield,etc. maybe i should have said 'pro producers who have produced platinum albums'. there is a difference.
Jun 20, 2002 03:03 pm You didn't ruffle my feathers, I was just trying to clarify what you meant. No I have no produced any platinum albums...and most producers that have wouldn't bother spending time wirtting article for our little website.
The actual definition of 'professional' is making money doing it. That many of us do that...if I could get Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis to submit an article to us I would, but be serious...there are many great musicians and producers out there that just haven't had the breaks, that doesn't make them any less good, if you have been in the music scene as long as you probably have, then you know that. Hell I know a couple guitarists off the top of my head that can school Dimebag...they just haven't had the break...
I never claimed to be in the same league with those bigshots, but none-the-less am a professional.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jun 21, 2002 12:23 am Feather's? I haven't worn them since, 1974. Anyway, welcome to the site. Look around, see what you can see. Ask if you don't see.
We are here as not only a place for help, but as a sounding board for many, who will ask if we (the collective known as the community) think it might work or not. and they might get one answer back, or they might get ten.
Let me ask you a couple of thing's. Does your band have a website, you asked us to take a look at your band's bio, a link to a website would allow us to do so. Most people here love to check out new band's and music. I personally will listen to any and all type's of music, except maybe new country, but I will even give that a listen if someone ask's me to.
To date, my oldest son has brought 17 metal band's through this studio. 12 of which have done their demo's here. They may not be famous, but they now are getting gig's they didn't get without the demo's to distribute. So I feel I have done my job in a professional manor.
If you have some mp3's or track's of your music posted on the web, or available somewhere for us to listen to. We would be more then happy to give some advice on what to do to get the sound you want.
There are no magic setting's to use to get this sound or that sound. Although there are some general rule's to follow. But in my case, I don't follow them anyway.
I start with as flat a sound as I can get redorded at the hottest possible level's. Next, make a copy of the original track's to save. And then I will sit back and listen to each track alone, fatten it up or thin it out. Start adding any effect's that have been requested, or maybe needed. Then after I am happy with the track's as individual componant's, I start putting it all together.
Guitarist's are very plentiful, I have played with several who are on the level of the like's of Petrucci, Satrioni, Via. But as dB said, they are not lucky enough to have the break that other's have gotten. There are thousand's of musician's out there who will never be heard by more then maybe 100 people. But if those 100 hundred people liked what they heard, then I consider them to be lucky to have heard something no one else has heard.
And as far as playing time. I have been playing and recording for over 30 year's. Also played with artist's from around the world, with varying style's from thrash to punk to new age to classical. I will never say I was board musically.
So how about that link? We would love to see what Lifesize is all about!
LokiCone PokerMember
Since: Apr 07, 2002
Jun 25, 2002 05:57 pm Wow Noize, that was a LONG post :) Anyway, I used to listen to metal a lot one one thing I've picked up is that you are going to want to double the distorted tracks. What I mean by this is record a track when you are playing your heavy distorted guitar riff, and then copy and paste that onto another track, and make a lot of good use of Reverb, Delay, and Panning. A thick Raunchy guitar with a bit of delay and reverberation added to it can really add depth to a track. As a rule though, I never reverb one track only. If I reverb the guitar but not the vocals it will sound like the guitar is being played in a cathedral while the vocals are right in your face. Generally annoying. Anyway, Read "stupid EQ tricks" and surf this site, lots of good information here.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jun 26, 2002 10:58 pm Yah, I guess I got a little carried away. Nice tip though Loki, but I don't think this guy is gonna come back.
Oh by the way, I found their website. It seem's he did not like it here. He wanted critique of his sound, but left none for us to hear, so now we can go check it out. www.lifesizeonline.com/
Sorta sounds like a SevenDust wanna be band. I found listening with the intent of hearing heavy metal made me want to compare them with watching softcore porn on skinamax. Sorry guy's, just my humble opinion.
I found them on a kool website though. check it out if your into metal and such.
www.shatteredskull.com/
Oh ya, he was right about his sound being thin.
Jun 27, 2002 08:07 am I agree, I don't think this guy will be back either, I was a bit harsher than I usually am, but jeez..."Too bad you guys didn't have a section on your site that included tips/tricks from pro producers"...what is that? Why the heck would Mutt Lange write a column for us? That is rediculas to even suggest in my opinion, like he has nothing better to do? It would be cool, sure, but well, whatever.
Just because a guy or gal hasn't had a record go platinum does not make him or her a sub-standard producer. I consider myself a very good mastering engineer and producer even if I haven't had the breaks or awards...and I consider Noize a top-notch sound designer and recording engineer, but I don't see any platinum hanging on his wall either...
Grrrrrr...I guess a button just got pushed...oh well...whatever happens I hope the guy finds what he is looking, you are right, Noize, that music is pretty thin...I little magneto and stereo EQing could easily take care of that tho.
MSHARCMember
Since: Apr 05, 2002
Jun 27, 2002 10:45 am Whoa, I just read that thread. Yeah, I doubt he's coming back. You were right though about getting breaks. hard work and tralent are only a small portion from what I can tell. As a musician, I could barely be able to play for different chords, but if I put them together in such a way that sdounded good to some record scout, well, I might get a break. The thing with producers is that some of them I think really are "good." While other were given a break and somebody else wants to get THAT sound, or they want to be able to put a platinum selling producer in the liner so it'll help their sales. That is why I like it here though, I feel like in a way, its a great chance to learn from people who may one day BE platinum seeling producers or bands that may go platinum. You just never know.
As far as my opinion goes, limited as it is though, it seems like metal eq'ing in particular, seems to accentuate the lows and the highs while cutting most of mids. (This would be primarily on guitar of course)
That is what I wanted to ask. What DOES magneto do? I've heard you mention it several times, but never was sure. Thanks.
Jun 27, 2002 05:18 pm MAgneto saturates sounds like analog tape does, it makes it fatter and more powerful, it's really hard to explain, but once I heard it I have never done a mastering job without it...
LokiCone PokerMember
Since: Apr 07, 2002
Jun 27, 2002 08:10 pm Magneto is one of the coolest little plugins. It adds a tape like depth to the track you put it on. Like DB said, It's hard to explain, but it's a great toy
stupeMember
Since: Apr 03, 2002
Jun 27, 2002 10:56 pm thats right db, you could never be like those pro producers. BECAUSE YOU are BETTER! and because you actually care for something other than money.
noize you too.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jun 27, 2002 11:13 pm Thanx stupe, that means alot more then a gold or platinum record ever would. I guess I get more out of seeing someone discover what he or she can do with a little, or a lot. And turning out music that they are proud of, and want to share with the world, or just us.
I get more now from seeing the look on one of my kid's face, or their friend's, or anyone who come's in here and like's what they hear. Or sit's down and create's something new. It give's me the willy's thinking about everyone that has come through here, and if they ever think about what they did here.
And I too, was a bit harsher then I would normally be. But he was very arogant, and talked trash. I could plaster a ton of tune's all over mp3.com also, but I choose to be more private about what I do now. I am not in it anymore to get rich, allthough it would be nice to get a little money out of it. I do it because I love it.
Just one smile, or one person saying, "that was really cool" make's it all worth the effort.
Jun 28, 2002 05:41 am Quote:
thats right db, you could never be like those pro producers. BECAUSE YOU are BETTER! and because you actually care for something other than money.
:: blush ::
thanks stupe...I echo Noize's thoughts on the subject
Jun 28, 2002 03:37 pm i just read all those posts..you guys are funny!
i don't usually return to sites where people get their feelings hurt or want to get into some stupid internet argument over what somebody said. and yeah i did mean what i said ..there is a difference...but thats all small beans and it really doesn't matter.
anyways..no harm done here. aside from lifesizeonline.com you can also here us on www.mp3.com/lifesize . we'll be in san antonio this weekend playing the vans warped tour! woohoo and that does matter!
FYI - i recorded my gtrs two tracks at a time twice with a gibson les paul thru a 5150 so thin it is not. maybe thru little computer speakers. it was all done on 24 track adat. but i'm concerned with the whole band sound not just the gtr. i will send anybody here a cd copy of all 11 songs if you are interested just send me an address to [email protected] . and you guys can critique the hell out of it.
what i meant was it would be cool if there was a collection of tips/tricks/stories that were used to record famous albums..not if mutt lange would write a coulmn for you. thats like eddie van halen giving me lessons..stupid.
and the guy who compared our sound to softporn or skinamax..i didn't get that. please explain.
7dust wanna be? i wish. our vocalist sounds like sevendust, but the music is no where near the complexity of sevendust metal..if you have ever even listened to sevendust you could tell.
so you guys want to be cool and maybe discuss stuff that matters or do you want to go for round two? i'm for the discussions.
Jun 28, 2002 07:32 pm My feeling were neither hurt, nor did anyone, including myself, intend to start "a round". You were not very clear in what you said "wouldbe cool" and neither was I, no biggy, that is a major drawback of the interent, no body language or facial expressions to judge a persons intent with.
As far as tips and tricks of how famous album were recorded, that is a totally cool idea, but from your post I didn't read that in it anywhere...nor did anyone else I think.
As fra as there being a difference because someone has a platinum record, yes, I agree with that, but someone that has been in music for a good number of years still can have a wide collection of useful knowledge even without the platinum...isn't that true?
I am up for any discussion as it relates to recording or anything else...that is why I built this damn site in the first place, not to argue about who is better than who at what...I have better things to do than that...
That said, I would ask you to look through these forums and see the type of community we are, helpful, and generally light-hearted and fun...tho I don't recall the day, you must have got me on a bad one...I am generally not really defensive or confrontational, though I really don't know what you mean by "we are funny"...
What are you laughing at, am I funny to you, do I make you laugh, what...am I a clown to you?OK, sorry, I had to quote that movie...it sounded too apropriate at the moment, 5 beers or so into the evening... ;-)
One thing you may want to understand is that a few of use Noize and I at least, are friends out side the cyber life, and many of us have been discussing music and recording for many years through several versions of this website and have grown to be friends and co-horts...even though we have never met...this website and forum is only a couple months old, but the community is years old...
stupeMember
Since: Apr 03, 2002
Jun 28, 2002 07:47 pm noize i understood your softporn on skinamax thing. man last week i was watching some Passion cove, the music was really lovely. i wonder who writes that stuff?
i took a listen to the band lifesize and overall the sound is really good. i dont really listen to this soft pop metal music but as an engineer here is my opinion:
the guitar is lacking thickness. personally i would bring the snare reverb a little closer, i dont like it too far away. would boost the lows on the kick, i like a fat kick sound. good DYI recording though
tboneMember
Since: Apr 30, 2002
Jun 28, 2002 10:34 pm yeah the guitar sounds kind of weak, not enough impact i dont think. maybe some variation in guitar tone too to add depth. like if you're adding a double track, use a different guitar or something. or crank the treble and try for a different sound, it'll add a bit more life i believe. drums overall need a bit more compression i think, they lack pucnh as well. though the double kik is audible but it just lacks 'oomph'. maybe its my computer speakers right?
i personally think the vocals are weak too. add a bit more highs to the vocal track. its obvious that you're looking for a dark sound but i mean it sounds very bassy and it would sound very good if there was a bit more breath, give it a shot i think you will agree.
the bass guitar is inaudible. i think it needs more presence so once again i'd suggest adding some more mid to highs.
and finally....compress the **** out of the whole damn thing. i dont know if im allowed to write **** but hey db can clean it up i guess....compress it to the point where its not distorting and, of course, it doesn't sound like instruments are moving around in the mix.
overall: more presence for vocals and bass and compress the damned thing. it'll sound cool
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Jun 29, 2002 10:53 am Ok, no hurt feeling's here either. I did listen to all the track's at mp3.com. The referance I made to SevenDust was a good one. I didn't read far enough down in the band bio to see the mention of SevenDust untill after I wrote that.
Anyway, the guitar's do sound good, even as an mp3. PC speaker's, I think not. My mian moniter's are KRK, my mp3 player's and main board are set up to compensate for even the worst mp3 encoding. And if that doesn't melt my heart, then I crank up the big amp, and some 15" moniter's to rattle my old bone's. But that said, an mp3 is still only an mp3.
I will email you a PO box address to send a disc to. I personally like the tune's you have posted at mp3.com. Musically, they are well done. Sonically, as you stated, there is something missing. Just from the listen of the mp3's, the sound of the drum's is very small compared to the Bass and guitar. the defanition between the guitar and the bass is a little muddied. It sound's like Greg has a powerfull voice, but again, his vocal track was left very thin in the mix at time's. The harmony part's jump to the front of the mix, especially in Blur. But like I said, it is only an mp3.
Also, congrat's on playing the Warped tour, in San Antonio. Hopefully it will get you some more listener's. I know 2 metal band's from the Minneaplolis area here singed with major label's after being seen on the tour date's in the 5 state area here. So it is a good thing, "WOOHOO" for you.
And yes, I will stay serious here. So everything is kool and will remain so. And the referance to softcore porn on skinamax, {Cinamax is refered to as skinamax becasue of the adult movie's, which are all softcore late at night) is an inside joke. I scored several softacore S & M flix in my younger day's, and the music was of the soft metal variaty. And I apologize if you were offended, as it truly was not meant as a major put down.
All that said, good luck on Sunday at the Warped tour show. I look forward to hearing the tune's on the CD, and I will bring dB over for a couple of beer's and give it a good listen.
Final note: My oldest son say's he has heard you guy's, but he couldn't remember where.
