Good News, Bad News
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Posted on Mar 19, 2003 12:15 am
Mat
Music Enthusiast
Member Since: Jan 24, 2003
Alright, the good news is. I found myself a great vocalist!!
The bad news is, I couldn't figure out how to monitor the voice in the headphones while feeding my guitar track in the monitoring headphones without it being recorded with the vocals...Basically, she needs to hear the track and herself but I only want the vocals.
You can check my profile for equipment, or I can just tell you the basics: Behringer Eurorack 602A Mixer + Audiophile 2496. I played around for a long time and I think the mixer is actually limiting me for what I want to do. I was trying to think of other solutions but I am not sure. I realize that there it gets more complicated as you add tracks eh? Anyway, I really hope you guys can point me in the right direction. I give up for tonight...Thanks so much!
Here's snippet (a bit long: 2mins) I did on the fly with my new vocalist tonight:
chat.carleton.ca/~mlandry/new.htm
It was the first time we worked together but I think it worked alright. I need a screen to get rid of S's and P's I guess...I added a bit of reverb on her voice. Any feedback on this crude (IMHO) recording is much appreciated.
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juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Mar 19, 2003 04:13 am Good news Mat - this one's not so tricky :)
The 602 has a single AUX send - AUX sends can be used to send a signal out of the desk and into something else.
Now usually this owuld be an item of outboard gear (eg: a reverb unit) - but in your case, it will work just as well feeding one of the inputs on your Delta 2496.
Simply plug a cable from the AUX Out (located near the headphones socket) to one of the 2 inputs on your Delta 2496, then plug your mic and guitar in as usual.
Now, anything that you want to send to the soundcard can be specified by turning the AUX send knob - just turn it so that the signal is hot enough but no clipping.
Hope that's all cool
jues
Mar 19, 2003 05:39 am Jues, I think he meant the guitar that was already recorded.
Either way, you can still use basicly the same concept, however there are a few ways to do this.
Run the outs of your soundcard into inputs on your mixer.
If you have PFL's (Pre-Fader Listen) on each channel, use those on the soundcard, and the vocals. If not, you'll need to send the soundcard and the vocals through AUX sends to a seperate headphone amp (maybe you have a stereo with AUX inputs or even in a pinch a guitar amp with a headphone jack?) and that would do the trick as well.
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Mar 19, 2003 11:00 am On a second look, yes you are right - I mis-read it, but still it's not too hard to ammend - it should have read:
"Simply plug a cable from the AUX Out (located near the headphones socket) to one of the 2 inputs on your Delta 2496, then plug your mic and Delta 2496 ouptuts into the 602 as usual. "
MatMusic EnthusiastMember
Since: Jan 24, 2003
Mar 19, 2003 11:11 am Thanks guys for your help...I think the problem tho, is that the AUX knob is linked to the LEVEL knob or something...I don't know. I tried this but there always seems to be some overflowing of the guitar track with the vocals I'm trying to record. I mean it's not much, but it probably adds some echo that I don't want...
I was thinking of getting a cable/adapter with one female out and two male inputs. I would plug the monitoring headphones in the female and one of the male in my MX300 soundcard (to get the guitar track) and one in the mixer 'PHONES' to get her voice back to her when she sings, and then work from there.
Any opinions on this?
Mar 19, 2003 11:20 am It seems to me that the most logical and easiest (tho not least expensive) would be either to buy a mixer with sub outs, or buy a microphone preamp and run the vocals straight to the sound card not going through the mixer at all.
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Mar 19, 2003 11:35 am "It seems the AUX knob is linked to the LEVEL knob"
hmmm, that's interesting - it's true that the AUX Send on the MX602 is definatly Post-fader, but that should not effect the AUX path in this respect.
Okay, here's the hypathetical setup: (assuming the 602 has inputs 1 and 2 as XLR ins and 3/4 and 5/6 as stereo ins.
Plug the Mic into input 1. Set the pan to center, turn the AUX send knob all the way to the right. Set the level knob to an appropriate setting so you can monitor thru headphones.
Plug the Output from the Delta 2496 into inputs 3/4, set the Pan to center and make sure the AUX knob is all the way to the left (full off), set the level appropriatly to the vocals on channel 1 to allow for good monitoring.
Plug the AUX Out from the desk into the LEFT input on the Delta 2496.
If this setup still creates the bleeding you mentioned then there is somthing wrong with your desk... :\
...unless you are just picking up spill from the headphones the singer is wearing?!
jues.
MatMusic EnthusiastMember
Since: Jan 24, 2003
Mar 19, 2003 12:02 pm Alright, I figured it out. Since I have two soundcards (Audiophile 2496 + MX300), I run the line out of the 2496 to the line in of the MX300. Then I set the "H/W Out 1/2" to "H/W In 1/2" under the 'Patchbay/Router' tab in the M Audio Delta Control Panel. The rest stays the same on the mixer (main out to 2496 ins and nothing to do with AUX) Works like charm!! Wooo!
Now, you can check my rough mix if you wnat and tell me what you think; same link as above (the one with vocals) She's worth showing off IMO hehehe :-) I am new at all this however, so I'll be harrassing you guys about mixing and stuff in the future probably. This site is so great. A good motivational environment.
Mar 19, 2003 12:13 pm Quote:
A good motivational environment.
Hey, that's what it's all about!
Good luck and have fun, I will give it a listen tonight.
MatMusic EnthusiastMember
Since: Jan 24, 2003
Mar 19, 2003 12:14 pm Hey Jues...
I think you also found a valid solution. I didn't see your post before posting mine. Haven't tried your way yet but I'll give it a go since you took the time to write the procedure all down. Thanks so much for your help. I appreciate!
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Mar 19, 2003 12:25 pm That's cool Mat, I just hope it works.
I will check out your audio clip when I get some free time - I have to be off to work in a minute :(
jues.
juesContributor
Since: Dec 30, 2002
Mar 19, 2003 12:28 pm Mat, I've just got it I think!
You say you are also getting bleed from the guitar when you record the vocals. Which inputs are you using when recording the vocals in your chosen app.
If I am correct you will have the choice of either "M-Audio XXX Multichannel" or "M-Audio XXX 1/2" - make sure you have "M-Audio XXX 1/2" selected otherwise the ouput from the card will also get recorded along with any signal coming into the inputs.
I think that's the problem here.
ps. Although you say you current solution works (and I'm sure it does) - you don't really want to continue going about things this way because passing a signal from one soundcard to another via analouge will always result in signal degridation as it passes through 2 sets of A/D and D/A convertors - just to let you know.
jues.
MatMusic EnthusiastMember
Since: Jan 24, 2003
Mar 19, 2003 02:05 pm Jues, I'm not sure I understand your point about signal degradation...I am just using this setup as a monitoring tool. The only thing recorded is the vocals straight from my mixer to the M-audio...Am I missing something?
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Mar 19, 2003 07:27 pm Hey Matt, just listened quickly to the track. Excellant voice, she seems to have pretty good control. Did she just do that off the cuff, or did you rehearse it a bit? It sounds as if that was the first take, and she just went with teh flow. Her voice fits nicely with the guitar sound by the way. I liked it, and cant wait to hear the finished product.
MatMusic EnthusiastMember
Since: Jan 24, 2003
Mar 20, 2003 12:04 pm Thanks for your comments 'Noize2u'! Well, it was the second take but I'm still learning how to record vocals and I don't have a compressor, so she had to sing a bit away from the mic. We're also not sure about every parts of the songs. Some we feel are really good, others we'll probably change. I'll try to keep you posted.
Mar 23, 2003 04:32 pm just listened to the new mix vocals. one word "wow"
with a voice like that i think you can get away with just a little software compression. the part about "grey skys, the green in your eyes" really gets me. and again, great guit-boxing.
MatMusic EnthusiastMember
Since: Jan 24, 2003
Mar 23, 2003 09:43 pm I'm glad you like it Jamie! If you feel like it, you can check crossroads (she put lyrics to that one too) and let me know what you think, it's the same link...She doesn't like it and said she would trash it and do it over again. I don't know tho. I thought it was pretty good...
glynbMember
Since: Dec 16, 2002
Mar 26, 2003 10:48 am Mat, just had a listen to your new collaborative effort with the vocalist "Stuck In a Moment".
She has a good voice, and the overall impression was good.
I think the mix is not the best. To my ears the voice was too low - the voice is always the most important thing in my opinion, especialy such a good voice. It sounds a bit like you made the classic mistake (maybe under pressure from her?) to lower the voice due to embarassment - which is uncalled for as it's a great voice. At other points the voice came through OK - did you use a compressor to even out the peaks in the voice- it doesn't sound like you did? Or could it be that you mixed it the song and you are the guitarist, so you would naturaly tend to have a bias towards making sure the guitar can be well heard? LOL
The sound of the voice was also a bit roomy, like it was recorded in a bedroom, (which it probably was?). A bit more reverb would fix that I'm sure.
But don't get me wrong, it sounds good overall, just a few suggestions to improve things.
Thanks for posting.
Mar 26, 2003 02:40 pm wow, very nice. i love her voice, and the lyrics. it really sounds good from the second verse onward. i don;t know, something about the opening that doens't just fit with th erest of the song. excellent voice though, wow.
i hear when glynb is hearing with there being no compression. i was thinking maybe some HP filter might help to, to reduce her breathy booms into mic. find a point where she's booming, loop it and play with the cutoff freq on the filter until the booms are reduced. easy fix ;O)
i'm getting a compressor in a week or two, maybe i had offer a review of whatever model i end up with. :O)
MatMusic EnthusiastMember
Since: Jan 24, 2003
Mar 26, 2003 05:45 pm Thanks for your comments Glynb and Jamie, I really appreciate.
I agree with you Glynb, after repeated plays, I thought the voice was a bit too low. I think the reason I left it low was because by making it louder, I amplify all the breathing and pops and all since I don't have a HP filter. (What's the sarcastic command by the way? I could've went for a little sarcasm here...anyway)
Glynb, I'm not sure what to do reverb-wise. The echoey sound of her voice is the result of the type of reverb I put on it...Other people told me they didn't like it as well. If you have time to check our other song that is up, Crossroads, you'll hear her voice with no reverb at all. Just natural with a bit of software compression and eq. But you'll also notice my bad sound engineer skills...
I'm not sure about compressors...I get a feeling that a lot of people preach their wonders but I don't think I'm ready to shell out more cash for something I don't really need at the moment. I just caught the new Linkin Park video today and I noticed how I don't like compression works sometimes. Scream, whisper, sing softly it all has the same amplitude. No dynamic at all. I don't think that's really musically interesting personally.
Stuck in a Moment is chopped off at both ends to make it smaller, maybe that's why the begining part didn't sit well with you Jamie? Crossroads is the full song tho.
Mar 26, 2003 06:05 pm mat, i've had a song in my head all afternoon today, a beautiful guitar line that just keeps repeating over and over again, i couldn't figure out what it was, then it struck me. it's "stuck in a moment". just thought you'd like hear that :O)
god, she she has a beautiful voice. i dont' think there's much you need to do to color a tone like that. BTW a highpass filter is just a type of EQ. What sofware are you recording with, and then maybe i can help you find a plugin for it or something?? a little HP and some light compression, in that order, might give her some presense or however it's spelled. i say light compression because it's the dynamics in her voice that relaly make it so powerful.
as for linkin park style compression.. yeah, it's really the standard today to squash a track until it's as loud as possible. sad really, cause i appreciate the differences that 96dB of headroom offers, sometimes subtile, sometimes dramatic. Sometimes i'll be listening to a dynamic masterpiece like Smashing Pumpkins - Siamese Dream (listen to the song Silverf*ck all the way through and you'll hear what I'm talking about) and then I'll pop in something new like Staind - Break The Cycle and every friggin song is LOUD, maixmuixed to the roof, and it's get tiring after awhile. When each peice looses the effect because it's back to back LOUD LOUD LOUD. I notice almost all of the rap and rock coming out nowadays is just way over-compressed.
oh yeah scarcasm is just like the other UBB codes, [codeword]your text to be effected[/codeword] where the codeword is sarcasm
MatMusic EnthusiastMember
Since: Jan 24, 2003
Mar 26, 2003 07:51 pm That is very flattering Jamie. I hope it wasn't an annoying-stuck-in-the-head type of thing tho haha
Oh, I thought HP filter meant hiss and pop filter. The type of screen thing you put in front of the mic...lol HP = high pass, makes sense...
I'm using Cool Edit 2. There's a lot of stuff to do and I'm not sure how to take advantage of a lot of it. If you ever read "Zen and the art of motercycle maintnance", I'm the type of person that's at the opposite end of the spectrum to mechanically inclined people, so whatever is technical takes me a while to grasp. Not because I don't understand, but because it takes effort to care about it for me. So, that being said, I usaually end up using the presets. Using the 'premaster', '30-band punch and sparkle' eq presets seem to work well on my guitar. As for reverb, I don't know. I like 'dirty-plate' for my guitar but for her voice, it all seems too echoey sounding...
I think I need a tutor! :-P
Mar 26, 2003 09:23 pm i'm not familiar with CEP2, but does it support VST effects?
and as for a tutor, i'm not very mechanically inclined either, i learn way differnt from most people. i was the kid in the back of the class reading the entire science book from to back instead of focusing on the current chapter and winded up failing every test and refusing to do homework, yet i probably walked away from those classes with more than most of my peers. HRC has been my tutor because there's all this information here and i can browse thru the tips and search the forum threads for whatever i want whenever i want. i guess i'm the type to just asborb information from whoever i am near. i listen to how people speak and what they agther from things so that i might know what direction to take my own learning in. i just read all that, and that must make no sense! sory! :O)
MatMusic EnthusiastMember
Since: Jan 24, 2003
Mar 26, 2003 09:56 pm Sorry but what is VST?
MatMusic EnthusiastMember
Since: Jan 24, 2003
Mar 26, 2003 09:57 pm I looked it up in the glossary but it doesn't really help me much...
Mar 26, 2003 10:48 pm it's a standard audio effects processing plugin format. I like to think of them as guitar pedals for your computer. Some of them are expensive, but there's dozens and dozens of free ones out there if you know where to look. you'll find EQ's filters, distortion/overdrives, autopans, tremolo, phase shifters, flangers, choruses, you name it, it's out there. There's also another kind of VST caled VST instrument or VSTi, and they are the same thing, only they are sound generators, like synthesizers and samplers and such.
glynbMember
Since: Dec 16, 2002
Mar 27, 2003 05:55 am Well I bought a compressor last week, but I must admit I'm having dificulty in getting it to sound right. It seems to fix one problem (coming and going of the voice) and create another (sounding false/increasing the 's' sound). I still think it is a good idea, but you need to understand and lea how to use it. As for the bands compressing everything in rock music today, that's compressing the whole final master, not individual instruments or voice on a 'need only' basis, which is what I'm recomending.
As for a pop filter. You can get one without breaking the bank. Get a wire coat hanger and some gaffa/duct tape, ask a female for a pair of old stockings (preferably washed, er, but then again... ;-) ) Gaffa the coat hanger to the mic stand just below the top. Bend the coat hanger into a circle shape in front of the mic. Pull the tight over the coat hanger and cut off the waste - hey presto a pop filter!
Do it today Mat - at least you'll then have no more worries about those 'p' and 't' sounds from your singer!
