US Auto Makers
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Posted on Nov 13, 2008 08:54 am
Walt
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member Since: May 10, 2002
Although this is not up beat and fun, I find it intriguing as we have a lot of sharp peeps here with differing viewpoints.
My perspective of the U.S. Automakers is old, probably centering around the 80's. I remember then servicing them per data and telecomunications systems and noting inordinate greed, graft, and waste. More recently my nephew rose to the top ranks of GM management with his last endevor being the construction of a new plant. His focus on the design of the plant was to transition GM to TPS (toyota production system) and Honda standards, both utilizing lean manufacturing and proven succesful techniques used by those succesfull automakers. His reception by CEO level execs was that of "That's nice but this is a temporary lull and we will always be king. We have no intention of changing our approach". He as subsequently left GM to head up quality control for a non auto maker in the twin cities, siting that he could not moraly support GM any longer.
Now we are talking a bail out. Understanding that the imediate losses would be much greater letting them fail this is obviously a problem that is understood at some level, although what I hear is shallow; people sighting gas guzelers as our automakers only "sin" and the automakers blaming the housing market.
Given my perspective of our automakers; I see this as enabeling distructive habits on the part of the U.S. automakers, potentially creating a much larger problem for the future. I for one do not want to go back to "let the good times roll" mentality when there is so much need for our automakers to become competitive. I am tired of paying bloated car payments for managers who play video games and warehouse employees who sleep and play cards in the bins. Having said that, I also support living wages for all workers.
Any thoughts?
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Nov 13, 2008 09:05 am In a capitalistic society, business that can't make money should go out of business. As much as it sucks for America, the economy and the 2.5 million workers, these businesses, and NO businesses should ever be bailed out.
If you can't make money you go out of business. The reasons that automakers are failing are partly due to everyone involved, including the unionized workers that demand higher pay than some of them deserve. Factory jobs like that have limited numbers of skilled workers and mass amounts of unskilled labor.
Foreign workers will always beat American as long as this type of system exists. I am not saying labor doesn't deserve livable wages or the "unskilled labor" is somehow inferior, it's just not as valued by the un-unionized world.
If unions were not in the picture, factory wages were down, products would cost less and we could compete.
Right now, we can't compete in that sector, and the gov't should not buy them into continuing to compete in a losing battle. The businesses need to figure it out or go out of business.
Nov 13, 2008 12:56 pm At some level, I agree with dB, and also disagree at the same time.
Yes, unions have gotten out of control. Going out on strike, because a janitor was sweeping up an area that was someone elses responsibility is just despicable.
But, at the same time. We need someone to stand up for the little guy that is getting the short end of the stick.
One of the biggest reasons for the auto industries failure right now. Comes form some of their accounting practices.
They make a forecast on how many cars they will sell in a quarter. From that forecast. They spend as if they already have that money. Dumb!
The idea of forecasting should be thrown out the window. Now I am not saying that this is the whole reason for their incompetence. But, it sure doesn't help.
As for the price that they stick us with. I feel that the dealers have most to do with that. Marking a car up by 100 - 200% is insanity! Then to add insult to injury, financing the car at a 13% or above.
I know that everyone needs their piece of the pie. But, come on. Does it have to be that much?
Nov 13, 2008 02:44 pm Yeah, I think once upon a time Unions had there place, I think their power has run completely amok...and is actually in large part responsible for the growing problems of out sourcing and quality.
What incentive is there if you know you can't get fired?
Nov 13, 2008 03:01 pm I don't know how the auto industry works with their unions. I know how the one works here. (Which, I am NOT a member of.)
I had a co-worker here that got fired. And he was the one responsible for bring the union in. Go figure.
And this is where I do agree with you dB. The union does carry a lot of dead weight around in various areas.
I think with better labor practice laws, we could eliminate the unions. But, for right now, I think they still have a place.
Nov 13, 2008 03:09 pm I heard in some report not too long ago the city of New York spends like 8 million paying for teachers that they can not let into a classroom (sexual assault conviction, violence problems, etc) but the unions won't let them fire...
I spent 10 years as a non-union independent machinist...I dealt with lots of unions...and have horrendous experiences...guys won't even sign a delivery ticket cuz "they're on break", so I waste 15 minutes waiting for him to "get off break"...ridiculous.
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Nov 13, 2008 06:05 pm I am always amaized how autoworkers are surprised when they're laid off.
But with Delphi apparently ceasing operations I don't see GM coping to well.
A lot of people bring up national security... but I can't think of any military vehicles GM produces... smaller companies are doing that... we should be looking out of AM General, Force Protection, and Spartan Motors... and the like.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Nov 13, 2008 08:19 pm For the sake of everyone's sanity I'll refrain from commenting here.
Remember I am the pot stirrer.
Nov 13, 2008 10:02 pm Working closely (as a supervisor) with a large steelworker /boilermaker/ pipefitter/ riggers/ laborer project opened my eyes to the benefit of unions.
Firstly, there were men on that job that were downright good at what they did and were worth every penny.
Secondly, there were guys that weren't worth the air they breathed, yet they didn't fire them because they'd just get put back on the list, and the list was currently so short, they'd just come right back to the job.
Thirdly, the guys not worth their air got paid $30/hr+ and pushed a broom (and sucked at it, if that's even imaginable).
There were pipefitters that were paid $50+/hr, and stood around most of the time doing nothing. Could I say anything to them? No. I could only speak to their foreman, who happened to be out fishing while he was charging time to the job.
The answer to unions is that some professions should have a union for training purposes, but things should also be performance based.
As we can see from Boeing, GM, etc. the workers are no longer the "little guy" and basically have the companies over a barrel. That ain't right. Since when did working become a right rather than a privilege? <-- i expect that statement to be inflammatory.
Finally, GM's cars have sucked, and have continued to suck because of the 'good ol boy' system that is still in place. Their cars have some redeeming qualities, but not enough to make me want to go buy one.
Nov 13, 2008 11:12 pm Well, I still contend that the dealers have a large part of collapsing GM and other auto makers.
And, yes I agree that there are problems with the unions in this nation. This is why I refused to join Local 8 when they where invited into our shop.
I still think that there is a small place for unions. But, I also would like to see their power reduced.
Oh, Zek. GM makes the Humvee, the Cutvee, and around 90% of the engines that the military runs on. Being that they own Detroit Diesel. Dodge is the next biggest military contributor. With Cummins.
Nov 14, 2008 06:25 am I personally think workers can make themselves valuable by doing an honest days work. That does make unions unnecessary.
There are some lame employers out there, for sure...but I don't think it's the majority, unfortunately, it is often the largest it seems...
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Nov 14, 2008 07:52 am I've pretty much stated my case here. I do see many unions having morphed into an almost pseudo-staffing agency. I have also seen unions be detremental to the employee as often as helpfull in my lifetime. Just two weeks ago drivers for a liquor distributor went out on strike against the union. The employer wanted to offer better health insurance than the union and the union tried to block it.
I still contend in the case of the auto industry it is both management and labor that are bloated. I took project management courses with mostly auto industry counter parts. They came right out and laughed at the work load I had to carry and how "little" I was paid. I say "little" parentheticly as I was making the standard wage for a PM.
It's a mess.
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Nov 14, 2008 10:14 am Here is a script being sent to GM employees:
Thank you for making your voice heard at one of the most critical times in our company’s history. Please call 1‐866‐927‐2233 to have your call placed to your legislator (s).
Below you’ll find a suggested script to use in your message to your legislators. You may also find additional key facts and messages at www.gmfactsandfiction.com that might also be helpful in strengthening your call for support of GM and America’s domestic auto industry.
It is important to note that as a constituent, your personal story and the impact a healthy, vibrant auto industry has on you, your family and your community can make your message more effective. For example, if you are one in a long line of generation of GM employees, or if GM has helped you or family members advance their education, these are just a few ways to personalize your message. Please take a look at the script before placing your call. We ask that you think about your personal circumstances that will help make the case for support of the auto industry more meaningful to your legislators.
•
Hello Senator/Congressman____________, my name is ____________ and I have been an employee of [GM plant city and state] for _____ years. [Add personal detail here.]
•
I’m calling to urge you to support GM and America’s domestic auto industry. I’m one of hundreds of thousands of autoworkers. But, there are millions more Americans among suppliers, dealers, retirees and communities that depend on my industry for their livelihood and well‐being.
•
All of us need your support now. We cannot sustain our industry because of the worst financial crisis to hit our country in over half a century. We run the risk of losing all of the gains we’ve made over the years to make our company more competitive and to build new technologies and cars that will benefit consumers and improve our nation’s energy security.
•
Our industry is the real economy that runs through Main Street. I call on you and your Congressional colleagues to help preserve jobs and help the domestic auto industry weather this financial storm. With your support, I know my company will emerge stronger and more competitive. And, that means a stronger economy and a more competitive America.
•
Thank you.
‐‐‐
If you have difficulty reaching your legislators, we ask that you please try again until you are successful at having your voice heard.
Thank you again for your support. Please know that your efforts do, and will continue to, make a difference.
Talk about El-Toro-PooPoo! The message I get is loud and clear; Either buy the gas guzzling, over priced crap we offer you or pay for it with your taxes and get nothing!
JDODBrother Number OneMember
Since: Jan 22, 2008
Nov 14, 2008 10:55 am GM have probably been a bit complacent in the past. I remember dB metioning someithn in another thread about how you are encouraged to "buy American"
Last time I was in the States I noticed lots of US Domestic Market cars I see very rarely over here, but also, as you would expect plenty of Toyotas and Hondas. Now American cars are really, really poor sellers in Europe mainly because they are inferior in quality, poor in spec, made with cheep looking plastics and are badly put together compared with other cars in their price range. I know a 300C might be a decent price for you guys but over here its priced similarly to a BMW 5 Series or and Audi A5/6 and there's just no competition. Similarly your Jeep is priced against the Land Rover Discovery or Merc ML etc. and it just falls behind in every area. Similarly with cheeper cars like the Dodge Caliber, its priced against a Ford Mondeo or a Honda Accord or a low spec Audi A3/4
The Fords we have over here like the Focus and Mondeo are all really highly rated and are competitivly priced against Hondas, Volkswagens, Citreons lower end BMWs etc, but I never saw many of them in the States but they are all over Europe. We often get ford trying to sell American market cars over here but they generally don't work. Do they try selling the european spec Fords in the US? If not maybe they should try it, my wife has a Ford Ka, do you get them over there?
Basically, I think what I'm saying in a long winded kind of way is that your domestic car makers may be complacent and think you will buy whatever they give you but maybe people are starting to want more. Couple that with wastage, ineffient working and bad management and you are onto a loser every time. Your wasting money in manufacturing, your domestic market share is shrinking and you haven't got an export market 'cos the cars aren't good enough.
It happened in the UK in the 1980s/early 90s when Rover went under, no one wanted a rover abroad, and UK buyers got frustrated with inferior cars to the point that even old people who were life long rover owners just went and got Hondas.
JDODBrother Number OneMember
Since: Jan 22, 2008
Nov 14, 2008 10:58 am Forgot to ask, do you get the European GM models in the States? the Vauxhall/Opel models of Astra, Vectra, Tigra, Corsa etc? If so are they the same as what we get here
WaltChief Cook and Bottle WasherMember
Since: May 10, 2002
Nov 14, 2008 11:11 am No, they won't sell them here. A lot of that is stated in terms of minor differences in environmental standards. We can't get the Mazda 2 either. That is one I am interested in per wonderful experience with the Mazda 3.
My findings are the same as yours Jdod, I owned a auto repair shop for a few years and the difference between foreign and American made were night and day. Ford (Fix or repair daily) and GM (Gross Maintenance) were guranteed repeat income for us. Honda, Toyota, and Mazda would come with 200+ miles on them for an oil change.
I've got two Mazdas at present, one with a ford escort body over it. All the Mazda parts hold up real good but the ford provided componants keep us going back to the repair shop at least once a quarter.
JDODBrother Number OneMember
Since: Jan 22, 2008
Nov 14, 2008 12:18 pm I'm on my third Mazda MX5 (Miata to you guys) 2 UK cars and one imported Japanese Domestic Market car, all totally reliable even though I've been taking them on track. In that time I've also had a Mitsubishi FTO and a Hyundai Coupe (do you get them?) They come with a 5 year unlimited mile warranty they are so confident in the build.
Nov 14, 2008 04:22 pm I have to say, I had a Chevy Cavalier I bought new in like 91 or so, forget exactly...all I did was routine stuff...oil, tires, fluids and whatnot...the thing ran for me 12 years solid with no major work at all...then it just f-in wore out...I was soooo happy with it I donated it to the vets and turned around and bought another Cavalier...60k on it now and still running strong with no major repairs yet.
I can't say I have a quality problem...our Malibu was fine for it's whole tour of duty with us, before that my wife's Daytona was good...
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Nov 14, 2008 05:30 pm I've never owned a new car... nor one with less than 100K miles on it... Though honestly Honda is just as American as Chrysler nowadays.
My cars in order:
82 Volkswagen Rabbit Diesel. Pretty much indestructible, though I had people run up screaming my car was on fire when I started it in the winter.
Nissan Pulsar not sure what year... lasted two weeks and I blew the engine... while waiting for a tow truck it was creamed by an old lady going 80mph and totaled... I made $2K profit on insurance :)
88 Nissan Maxima ... I liked it... shitty paint
91 Nissan Maxima (auction car) worked well.
90 Toyota Tercel (auction car) worked well
90 Toyata Corolla station wagon - traded it for my next vehicle at around 300K miles... the guy put a NOX system in it and raced it... amazing car.
Dodge Ram 3500 Extended Bus. Tour bus... worked... paint was ****... 6 foot long rust hole in the floor. Water punp went out when I was getting activated so we donated it to the auction.
Totaled my parats Jaguar XJ6 a couple days later
Came home and bought another 91 Nissan Maxima. Blew the trans a week later, replaced it myself... and it drove fine. I don't remember how I got rid of it...
89 Dodge Dakota pickup (auction)... electronic problem in the distributer... one that was figured out it ran great. Three months later we landed 20ft in a cornfield after a car T-boned me and actually went under the bed.
98 Dodge Ram 1500 (auction) absolute piece of crap... complete automotive engineering disaster. I sold it at a 50% loss about a year later (last spring)
98 Oldsmobile Aurora (auction) - Built 'too tight'... prior owner broke things by working on it wrong... radiator was broke because it was installed incorrectly, etc. Parts have their place and there is no leeway... just changing the airfilter is a pain. BUT... beautiful car... and fun to drive.... nothing like a V8 family sedan that can sustain 140mph...
