how loud is too loud?? mics.

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http://www.reverbnation.com/2ndg
Member Since: Nov 27, 2007

im using a quad box and head for recordin distorted guitar using a 57 up against the grill and i want to use my rode nt1 as the 2nd mic.

the amp sounds best up loud but im unsure about at what stage it may kill the condenser or even the 57 for that matter.

if the 57 can handle say 130dB at what roughly should i peak it at and more so does anyone roughly know, on a 120watt tube amp, how i can tell how loud it is db wise on say, 5 or 6?

I know it sounds like a stupid question as how the hell would anyone know my amp?. Just thought someone here may have a fair bit of knowledge with tube amp vols.

im just looking to get the best tone from the amp possible without nuking the mics. especially the condenser.
Cheers.

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Prince CZAR-ming
Member
Since: Apr 08, 2004


Jul 03, 2008 10:10 am

I've also wondered this. I'm anxious to see an experienced answer.

www.TheLondonProject.ca
Member
Since: Feb 07, 2005


Jul 03, 2008 10:14 am

Hey Deon, 130 dB is the threshold of pain. Very loud. The Who's concert in 1976 was arguably the loudest concert ever was coming in at 126 dB. It is roughly as loud as a shot from a rifle. SM57's have been used for a long, long time by many artists that want to crank it to 11. Get the best tone out of your amp and slap that 57 up against the grill towards the edge of the speaker cone. You will be fine. One note; ease back on the distortion when recording. You will find that the recorded version sounds more distorted than live.

To know the exact dB, head down to your local Radio Shack and pick up an SPL meter. There are cheap.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jul 03, 2008 10:18 am

I have always found that a condensor on a guitar amp is best used set back a ways as a kind of spacial/ambience mic, not the mic right on the grill, the 57 always works well on the grill, and if you blow it up, you'll make history...

producer
Member
Since: Dec 07, 2006


Jul 03, 2008 10:24 am

I have used a very similar setup for micing cabs. I usually start with a 57 and a D112 as close mics, then drop a R0DE NT-1A as a 3rd mic set back a few feet. I have tried it at different space intervals and to be honest, the D112 sounds the best for crunch, the 57 is always a hearty choice for mids but obviously doesnt have the low end the D112 does, and the R0DE usually ends up getting turned down pretty low in the mix (or sometimes off) because I like the close mic sound better - particularly for rock or metal.

If its the ambience your looking for, the R0DE (or any other LD Mic) always seems to shine for me with blues or clean sounds in the right room. I've done this with several different setups ranging from a Triple Rectifier (150 watts cranked) to a Fender Twin (at moderate volume) and have never run into any decible overloading with the R0DE. I wouldnt suggest close micing the cab with the R0DE at max volume though, but if your setting it back a few feet, you shouldn't have to baby it with volume. It seems like a pretty versatile mic at 137 dB max spl. I'd be interested to see if anyone else has any horror stories, but its fairly common to use a LD mic on a guitar cab so I think you'll be fine. Play with the x and y axis though to find the sweet spot.

http://www.reverbnation.com/2ndg
Member
Since: Nov 27, 2007


Jul 03, 2008 08:33 pm

cheers guys, that makes things sit a bit easier with me.
The comment from dB was good about making history if i blow up the 57. its must need to be friggin loud to blow it coz it tell ya, man this amp can get preeeety big.

my main concern was the condenser, but you just never know so i thought to ask here.
the spl metre is a good idea i think too. yeah i also, without a doubt agree, distortion down for recording, particularly for multitracks as it tends to build up i find.

what are your thoughts on this?

I've use the condenser before, just as a single mic on the cab and it sounded quite tasty in its own way, but use the 57 and that together, and i cant seem to get the two great sounds to shine through like they do singular, now im "resonably" sure there's no phasing going on, dont quote me on that, but yeah, its like they sound they same as each other almost.
i've used "phase reverse" in Cubase but i cant tell the difference really.
in fact, at times, it sounds like it loses its edge leading me to believe the phasing is ok.

can even a smidge of phasing do this to guitars? and has anyone got themselves a phasing tool that is spot on?

cheers Deon.


The Czar of BS
Member
Since: Dec 31, 2007


Jul 03, 2008 08:46 pm

It is possible to have the same characteristic's form two different mic's.

The biggest different between dynamic and condensers, is gain.

The condenser should be much hotter then a 57. This allows you to lower the noise floor in your recording.

If you feel that there is a phase issue with you mic technique, then try putting the mic's out of phase with each other.

Put one on the front of the cab, and the second on the back. This is usually used for an open back cab. But, most tube amps are.

http://www.reverbnation.com/2ndg
Member
Since: Nov 27, 2007


Jul 03, 2008 09:55 pm

its a head and quad box, but i've heard of people doing this anyway, even with a closed back box.

will muck around some more, just noticing the sparkle from the nt-1 like i do by itself.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jul 03, 2008 10:17 pm

Deon, all the stuff above is good for sure. I have done 4 X 12's with up to 4 mic's with pretty decent results. Loud ones as well. I will state right out though that the set up I use works in one room here and only that room. I would need to spend several hours lining up the mic's in another room to get the set up correct again.

But yes, even that combination I use are 4 distinctly different mic's and they con sound very similar on all the tracks at times.

So experiment with were you place the condensor and just keep going until you get the sound you want. It will work eventually.

And about dB's 57 comment. It is sooo true, they are the most bullet proof mic I have ever known.

You can use it to hammer in the nails to hold your banner at the beginning of the show and then at first break, use it to stir your drink. Then go put it back in front of the cabinet and you good to go.

http://www.reverbnation.com/2ndg
Member
Since: Nov 27, 2007


Jul 04, 2008 04:28 am

so its multi-taskable. i like it!

my room is...how can put it, not good at all, so i might do some work on it.
My guitar sound is actually sweet, but you know, always trying to get it better.

www.TheLondonProject.ca
Member
Since: Feb 07, 2005


Jul 04, 2008 10:41 am

One technique that I learned in school was to use 3 mics with three very different characteristics. We used a SM57, ATM25 and a 414 (Omni, placed about 4 feet away). Use placement that exagerates the characteristic. For example the 57 is a bit bright so place it right in the centre of the cone. The ATM25 is kind of warm so put it on the edge of the speaker cone. The 414 in omni will pick up a bit of room sound. Blend all three to taste. Mess around by inverting phase and volume etc.

http://www.reverbnation.com/2ndg
Member
Since: Nov 27, 2007


Jul 04, 2008 08:18 pm

thanks BeerHunter, inverting phase, is that the same as "phase reverse" on say Cubase 4?
I have found that when i use this it can make my sound a little less attacky, could this mean it was in phase to start with and im puttin it out?


Uh, at least one more time . . .
Member
Since: Feb 07, 2007


Jul 06, 2008 01:08 pm

How loud is too loud? I'd say the pain threshold is too loud. I wonder how many people at that Who concert suffered permanent hearing damage?

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