live vocals

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Member Since: Mar 12, 2008

if i need a lil extra gain for a vocal mics what would be better DI box, pre-amp, or some other method i dont know.

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edit0r
Member
Since: Aug 17, 2004


Mar 16, 2008 03:04 am

If you're vocal mic is clipping (re: other thread) your vocal mic has too much gain! A compressor (read the tips section) can help to smooth out peaks and troughs, so the average level becomes louder, but on a budget, I would turn everything else down :-D.

If you're cranking the gain on still not getting enough output, then a preamp is the way to go.


Member
Since: Mar 12, 2008


Mar 16, 2008 03:38 am

its not really clipping i just wanted to know to make sure if i did let it clip a little it wont damage anything, and yea i use a compressor, i just wanted to use the pre-amp to give a lil extra umph for vox mics before they go into mixer or is that redundant?

edit0r
Member
Since: Aug 17, 2004


Mar 16, 2008 09:01 pm

Not sure how much you know, but the mixer obviously has preamps built in. You could change the tone of the vocals with a different preamp, but it would not give you any extra gain that you don't have already.

Member
Since: Mar 12, 2008


Mar 16, 2008 09:25 pm

ahhh i see, yea i thought it might be redundant after i used a little of my common sense =), guess i gotta ask the dumb question to make sure i know before i do it.

edit0r
Member
Since: Aug 17, 2004


Mar 16, 2008 09:39 pm

Haha, no worries man.

The Czar of BS
Member
Since: Dec 31, 2007


Mar 16, 2008 10:08 pm

If you are looking for a little extra gain, there is a couple of trick that can get it for you.

One way depended on the board that you are using. If the board has sub groups, then you can assign the vocal channel to that sub group. A sub group has an preamp as well. This should give you at least another 6 dB of gain. Unforutunaly this will also increase the noise floor as well.

The second way is simple EQ. EQ will always be mightier then gain. Remove some of the low end away from the vocal channel. Low end takes more energy to produce. By putting a HPF of about 150 to 250 hz on a 3 to 6 dB slope, you can increase the headroom almost 3 to 6 dB.

Member
Since: Mar 12, 2008


Mar 17, 2008 01:53 am

yea im dumb i didnt even have the compressor on sorry for the waste of bandwith, I guess what im really trying to do is setup a system for 50-250 with stuff i already have, if anyone can help i can send pics of what i have and how i was planning to set it up so i can get smarter peoples opinions so i can maximize my spending on the right things, if anyone can help with this i would be most indebted to them or u can just call me a noob and be on ur way ill take both =)

edit0r
Member
Since: Aug 17, 2004


Mar 17, 2008 03:06 am

Just pop an inventory of what you have up on the forum. I'd happily go through it.

Member
Since: Mar 12, 2008


Mar 17, 2008 03:53 am

ok at this point i dont really think this is the orthodox way to do it but its just what i have at the moment and how i thought id do it since im noob, ok here it goes(this system will be playing mostly metal but the versatility to play others as well : my mixer is a Behringer Eurodesk SL2442FX
1.) 2 vox mics
2.) mic 2 guitar cabs
3.) mic a bass cab
4.) mic a keyboard amp or directly into mixer havent decided yet since i havent heard both
5.) mic drums (2 bds, 1 snare, 3-5 toms)
6.) send the main outs (xlr and 1/4) to a dual 31 band eq
7.) drop all the low frequencies out of the mains
8.) then run eq'd signal of each into their respective amps (xlr to carvin HD1800, and the 1/4 into a HD900)
9.)the HD1800 goes to a pair of Kustom KPC215H 2x15" PA Speaker Cabinet with Horn
10.) the HD900 goes into a pair of phonic SEM715 15" with horn and piezo tweeters(not the best speakers i know)
so far thats pretty much all i have
but i plan to:
11.) mono out another HD900 bridged to 2 peavey pv118's (the subs are 400 watts each) this isnt really set in stone yet just kinda what i put together in my mind they'll prolly be 4 in the long run. really this whole part is up in the air since i need to check GC for good deal on subs
12.) then monitors, but i shouldnt have any trouble with that going through the aux send on my mixer

then i thought id be done, but im sure my first mistake here is not having a crossover but this is kinda just a rough draft (also a little easier on my pocketbook) so to speak so whatever is wrong plz tell me. Also if this setup cant handle that much instrument miking let me know as well (if you have questions ill gladly answer). thnx to anyone who friggin read all that. =)

The Czar of BS
Member
Since: Dec 31, 2007


Mar 17, 2008 11:04 am

OK, looking at your set up, I still would suggest going with a crossover. I know that it is a ouch on the pocketbook, but, the boards mono sub out is not the ideal way of sending the signal out.

The SEM715.... Yes, your right. Not the ideal for the music you are tyring to reinforce. Piezos have many limitations. High SPL is one of them. Another concern is the phase of the speakers. There is one test that you can perform that will tell you the phase.

Take a 9v battery. Put one of your speaker cables in the box. Look at the polarity of the speaker cable. (Which one is positive, and which is neg.) Position the battery in the same orientation. + to +, - to -. Touch the battery to the cable, and watch the 15" speaker for the direction that it moves. Either forward or back. Do the same for the other double 15" speakers that you have. If they both move in the same direction, your fine. If one moves forward, and the other back, your out of phase. Being out of phase, will reduce the capability of your over all volume.

If they are out of phase, no problem. Just reverse the leads on one side of the speaker cable. This will put it back in phase.

I would suggest leaving the EQ's flat for you set up. Your boxes have a passive crossover in them. By taking out the lows on the EQ, you are also reducing the output of them. The passive crossover will take out the unneeded frequencies. Only pull out the trouble frequencies. This will give a small amount of headroom to your system.

Also, an EQ on the subs is not a bad idea as well. I think your board has an EQ built in. That should be good enough.

Gives all of this a try, and let me know how it turns out.

Member
Since: Mar 12, 2008


Mar 17, 2008 03:19 pm

now when you say match the polarity, u mean remove the speaker from the box then connect the battery to the to the corresponding +/- on the speaker wire on the inside? im kinda confused on that whole part cuz how do i check the polarity of a 1/4 speaker cable? and also reverse leads, not sure what that means either. sorry for noob questions, and thanx for the help rob

The Czar of BS
Member
Since: Dec 31, 2007


Mar 17, 2008 03:29 pm

Uh no, you don't have to remove the speaker from the box. You can just use your 1/4" cable to do this with. A 9v will go across the connector just fine.

Reversing the leads is either opening the box, and reversing the contacts to the speaker, or, you can just open a 1/4" cable and reverse the wires inside. I would suggest doing it in the box. This way there are no cables to get confused.

The Czar of BS
Member
Since: Dec 31, 2007


Mar 17, 2008 03:35 pm

Just remember, this is only if the speaker is out of phase with the double 15" box that you own. If they both move the same direction, then this is a mute point.

By the way, to check to make sure that your speaker cable is wired correct. Take a digital multimeter, put it on the diode test spot, and activate the tone. When you touch the meter to the tip of both of the 1/4" cable, you should hear the tone. If you do this, and there is no tone, move one of the test leads to the sleeve of the 1/4" cable. If you hear a tone then, you cable is wired backwards. If you don't hear the tone no matter what you touch with the test leads, then you have a bad cable.

The Czar of BS
Member
Since: Dec 31, 2007


Mar 17, 2008 03:39 pm

One more thing. you will hear a "Pop" when you attach the 9v battery to the cable. This is normal. Just don't hold the battery there for a long period of time. It might overheat the horn.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Mar 17, 2008 03:41 pm

if that doesn't work, try a car battery.

The Czar of BS
Member
Since: Dec 31, 2007


Mar 17, 2008 03:46 pm

Yeah, See how for you can send the pieces of the driver across the room!

Member
Since: Mar 12, 2008


Mar 17, 2008 03:47 pm

well from what i could tell they are in phase, connected the battery to each and all six 15" moved back, and what do u think of say a beringer crossovers, god those dbx and ashly are awesome but i need to eat too =)

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Mar 17, 2008 03:51 pm

Quote:
Yeah, See how for you can send the pieces of the driver across the room!


That'd be COOL!

The Czar of BS
Member
Since: Dec 31, 2007


Mar 17, 2008 03:59 pm

GOOD! One less thing to worry about. What you just saw is called in on make. Meaning when + to + make contact the speaker moves backwards. FYI, this automatically puts you out of phase for JBL. All JBL's are out on make. So, no JBL in your future.

The Beringer is OK. I won't knock it. That should give you a little more control over your system. For example; If your top boxes are overrunning the subs, you can turn down the tops and increase the subs right from the crossover. Why not do this at the amp? When you adjust the knob on an amp, you are adjusting the input to the amp. It's not a finite control.

The Czar of BS
Member
Since: Dec 31, 2007


Mar 17, 2008 04:00 pm

And dB, Not when your the guy that has to clean it up! Trust me, paper shreds everywhere!

Member
Since: Mar 12, 2008


Mar 17, 2008 04:13 pm

yea i dont think ill be able to afford JBL anytime soon either =). so once i get the crossover and EQ(subs and the subs amp) should i be running this system tri-amped or bi-amped? also do u think this could cover 250 outside in a flat grassy area?

The Czar of BS
Member
Since: Dec 31, 2007


Mar 17, 2008 04:33 pm

If your double 15" box will do bi-amp. then by all means, do a tri-amp system. The more control, the better. If not, that's OK to. Bi-amp is still better then strictly passive.

Member
Since: Mar 12, 2008


Mar 17, 2008 04:38 pm

well what would be stopping my 2x15" from doing bi-amping? arent i just sending a frequency range to certain amps/speakers to take the load off other speakers, i guess i really dont understand bi-amping, tri-amping yet, and again thanks for all the help this is making this run way smoother than if i tried to research all this myself and risk ****** somethin up.

The Czar of BS
Member
Since: Dec 31, 2007


Mar 17, 2008 08:58 pm

This may be already the case, I m not sure this is how you are hooking up your system.

For your double 15" box to be bi-amp, it needs to have a four wire connector in the back of it.

This can be achieved by two 1/4" connectors. (Not recommended, to easy to get confused as to which one is which.) Or, an Neutrik NL4 connector. (The preferred connector.) If your box does not contain an NL4, it is easy to install. You just need to be aware that you need a switch to disengage the passive crossover.

In order to do so, you do need a active crossover. You need to separate the frequencies going to the double 15" and the horn.

Going this way, will allow you to have High, Mid, and Low per side. Which in turn means that you need three amp channels per side as well. The benefits should be evident right away with this method. More power applied to each set of drivers (Speakers, when referring to a bi, or tri-amp system, the individual speakers are now refered to as drivers. ie HF driver, horn, MF driver, your double 15", and LF driver, 18" sub.) With a crossover in place, you can now set the crossover point more accurately. And if your crossover allows you to change the slope of the HPF, or LPF, then you can really get in there and fine tune your system. Without having to dig deeply into your EQ. Leaving more power and headroom in your system.

Member
Since: Mar 12, 2008


Mar 17, 2008 09:10 pm

i dont think they allow for bi amping then since it only has one 1/4 in and then the parallel out i guess ill only be able to send mids/highs to the 2x15"s and the 15"s
lows to the subs

The Czar of BS
Member
Since: Dec 31, 2007


Mar 17, 2008 09:13 pm

You should be fine with this method. If you ever wanted to convert them to a bi-amp box, let me know, and I will see if I can send you pictures of how this is done.

Member
Since: Mar 12, 2008


Mar 17, 2008 09:20 pm

sweet that would be awesome and i would be much appreciative, cuz u guys are pretty much saving my *** from having to think =)

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