Live recording
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Posted on Feb 05, 2008 04:14 pm
TipMcVenus
Member Since: Feb 05, 2008
Hey guys,
I've gotten a gig recording live shows at a local bar. The goal is to put out a CD with all the bands playing.
My question has to deal with where to place the recorder, I will be using a Tascam US-1641.
Is it better to split the signals so one set is going to the PA and one to the recorder or could I get away with using the outputs on the Tascam and running those to the mixer?
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CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Feb 05, 2008 04:49 pm Unless you have a splitter that has isolated outputs ($$$$Cha Ching!!) you are better off coming out of one into the other.
Although some Y splitters would "probably" work fine, grounding issues would prevent me from using them if paired up with someone else's gear (club PA).
My choice would be outputs on tascam to the mixer. That way you are recording the dry signal but can tweak the tone\eq on the mixer so the show sounds good.
Of course you could run into the mixer, tweak the tone and then send those to your tascam. Once again, I would rather have the dry signal. It's easy to take away, tough to add.
This is just what I've learned from reading as I am highly interested in live shows, I have not tried this myself so take it with a grain of salt.
I bet one of the other guys have experience with this and can steer you the right way.
Feb 05, 2008 11:22 pm thanks for the advice. i am worried about running the pa sound through the tascam only because it means the house pa is dependant on my computer. i have faith in my computer but not that much faith! i would DIE if my computer froze and the mix didn't come through the pa.
keep in mind that the place is relatively small and the only things going through the pa are the vocals and a few mics on the kit.
i'm going to practice a few times at my studio to make sure everything runs smoothly. i may even run some compressor on the vox to help out the live sound at the place. who knows?!
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Feb 05, 2008 11:31 pm TMV, you share the same concern as me. Bringing down the house because of a recording issue. I would say that you should look for a send from the house system. That way if your recording app crashes you won't bring down the house. Plug into an insert up to the first click.... that kind of thing.
Others are sure to have chime in.
Feb 06, 2008 12:14 am OK, I'm going to admit right away that I am "NOT" a recording engineer.
However, I have done plenty of so called board recordings of shows.
From Presidential speeches of Clinton and Bush. To live show recordings of Rock and Roll, and Jazz shows.
The best way for me, is to take one of two options.
First way - Is to take a matrix output from the board. Just to get an independent left right signal with attenuation. Mostly used this way for speeches.
Second - Is to take two Aux sends. This way you can pick and choose the instrument and level of each.
All of this was for just a left right recording for a CD mix. For multi track recording, you really should have a iso mix going to your computer. Without it, you will induce noise into your recording, and the house mix.
Also, running the live show from your computer will give you increased latency. This may be large enough to throw the band off.
Feb 06, 2008 12:18 am One more thing, If you are doing multi track recording. And you don't have and Iso split. Find a local Sound company to rent one.
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Feb 06, 2008 11:32 am What is an iso split? I googled it but everything it turned up seemed to be regarding CD/DVD burning images.
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Feb 06, 2008 11:41 am An isolated splitter. Basically plug your xlr cables into it and it has two or more outputs per channel of which at least one would be "isolated" using transformers. Send all the isolated to your gear and all the standard outputs to the mixer. No sound difference, but there will be no oddities from two pieces of gear sharing the same line.
The 16 channel one I was looking at was $3k :( The jensen transformers it was using were $50+ a piece when I tried looking into building my own. I was looking at $900 just for the transformers.... Needless to say, I didn't get one.
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Feb 06, 2008 11:47 am Cheers CptTripps! Gotta look into this. Would you happen to have any links?
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Feb 06, 2008 12:05 pm Cheers Rob. OK, I get it now. I guess if I'm going to persue doing live sound recording then it will be my responsibility to have an Iso split that matches the amount of tracks that I want to record.
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Feb 06, 2008 12:35 pm I looked at the snakes and they do splits, but not isolated. The isolators are nice but I would need to buy both a snake\splitter and an isolator to achieve the same effect.
Just curious though, what is the price of the ISO8 if you know? It may be cheaper to get pass-thru isolators like the ISO8 and splitters for all channels.
I was thinking more something like this for true isolated splitting in one box. You input your xlr cable and then have one direct out (goto PA mixer of club) and then one isolated out you can run to your interface. Too fancy and spendy for me at this time though.
www.wireworks.com/Microph...LR-Splitter.htm
Feb 06, 2008 01:55 pm I don't know the price off hand. I'll see if I can contact our rep down there. We have four that we send out on rental just for this reason.
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Feb 06, 2008 02:42 pm Cool, I am very interested in purchasing, but not at the 3K mark :)
Feb 06, 2008 02:52 pm yeah that is a mosnter of a piece of equipment. if i was going to isolate channels, i would have to say that there would be like 4-5 tops. anything in that range?
Feb 06, 2008 03:23 pm for the Rapco SSR 400, I found it for 179.00 at Jacks Music Factory. That is one of the models we use. It has an Iso and a pass throw.
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Feb 06, 2008 04:56 pm Hey Rob, it would be awesome if you could do an A\B with the Rapco Vs. Whirlwind. The Rapco does not even divulge what transformer it uses and I am curious if you would hear any noticeable difference. If impossible that's cool, but some first hand info would be cool before I drop $2-400 :)
Feb 06, 2008 05:12 pm Both Rapco and Whirlwind build their own transformers. You can request Jensen's if you want them, but at a cost.
As for sound quality, both transformers are 1:1 ratio. So, the coloration would be neutral.
I don't think you would be able to distinguish between the two.
CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Feb 06, 2008 05:25 pm Roger that, I read good things about the whirlwinds so that seems like a darn good\cost effective solution.
BeerHunterwww.TheLondonProject.caMember
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Feb 06, 2008 06:19 pm Great thread guys. Thanks for the info.
Feb 06, 2008 07:05 pm $180 sounds like the expensive way to me!
Does the 1641 have direct monitoring?
What kind of mixer is at the venue?
How many mics are live at one time?
E.g. Your generic rock band: If you only want to record 4-5 signals, you'll probably want drums into 2, bass, guitar, vox sum. Only way to do that with your setup is through Aux's and/or bus's on the mixing board.
If there are 8 tracks or less AND your 1641 has direct monitoring AND is reliable, you could definitely run the signals to the 1641 first and then line outs to the board. Any more than 8 tracks and you'll be mixing your tascam outputs with direct sounds. Might hear a bit of phasing going on.
My NZ$.02
Feb 06, 2008 11:38 pm Your right Colonel. The price of equipment of this nature is insane. Although I feel necessary. When ever you are joining two pieces of gear together, you always have ground loop issues.
This is just the nature of the beast. Low voltage electricity is difficult at best to keep clean. The more you add to the signal chain, the better you chances of inducing noise in the ground floor.
By putting an isolation transformer in line with your equipment will increase your chances of a clean mix.
An isolation transformer works by means of induction. This way, none of your equipment is actually seeing one another.
Strange I know. How this works is, the transformer has a 600 ohm load or greater to it. The preamp views this as a mic, or, any other transducer. This keeps the voltage from the preamp at nominal levels.
At the other end, your CD player or any recording equipment that you have, will view the transformer the same way.
Inside the transformer the wires never touch. Signal is transferred by electromagnetic force. A small magnetic field is produced on one side, which induces a current on the other.
With your gear never touching, the electronic potential of unbalanced voltages is 0.
This means you will have signal with no outside influences. (Noise) Ensuring your recording will be almost as clean as a studio gig.
Looking at the specs. of just about all USB and Firewire devices for recording. The latency is in around .44ms, to .77ms. So, a half a second or greater. Running the signal into the recording device first, then into a mixer will really tick your band off.
To them it will sound flange, or just a cacophony of noise. If anything, running signal from the board either from Auxes, busses, or matrixes, to your device is the best way.
And if the device is not in the same rack, or coming from a different power source, (such as a different outlet then the one the board is on) You really need an iso transformer.
Feb 07, 2008 12:16 am ok here's what im thinking:
The vocals and let's say 3 of 7 drum mics (kick, snare and one overhead) will go to the house pa.
If there are 2 vocal channels, there will be 5 channels that will run to the p.a.
Those 5 will connect to my Tascam individually via each channel's aux out on the house board.
The other mics (guitar, bass and additional drum mics) are going to run straight into my Tascam.
What do you all recommend to connect those aux outs on the board to my Tascam? Should they run them through a pre amp first or can they run right into my line ins? Can I use some of the front xlr/trs ins or just the balanced line ins on the back of the unit?
here's the link to the Tascam specs if you want to look it over: www.guitarcenter.com/TASC...081-i1368640.gc
Feb 07, 2008 12:30 am Oh, I see. This is a very small club. If you don't need to put the gtr's in the PA, then you are thinking correctly.
You won't need a preamp, because your Tascam preamp will definitely work for you.
The only thing I will suggest, is to AC ground lift your computer, and make sure that it is plugged into the same outlet as the FOH mixer. Without the iso's you need to make the potential as close to 0 as possible.
So, it sounds as if you have a good idea of how your plan of attack is going to lay out. After you done, post the best band of the evening here for us to listen to.
Feb 07, 2008 12:44 am yeah, this ain't no house of blues! i will definitely post some stuff once we get rollin.
just found this beast:
www.zzounds.com...--PHOFIREFLY808
what am i missing here? 18 channels? 400 bucks?
Feb 07, 2008 12:53 am No, your not missing anything. It's the description that is confusing. They say 18 inputs, the part that they left out, is that it's digital inputs.
Even still, that's not a bad price. Although I can tell you from personal experience, Personas is horrible with customer service. They have to be the worst!
For live recording, you can still only bring 8 ch's in at a time.
Feb 07, 2008 12:57 am ah i see it now. where's the interface with more than 8 simultaneous track recordings? i'd take anything from 12 up!
Feb 07, 2008 01:06 am Yes, you can stack preamps. The ones that you can, have a link cable to attach more to it.
The only draw back is bandwidth. The more you add, the lower the sample rate. On USB and Firewire, you can only do 8 at 96k. Any more then that, and the bandwidth runs out.
Feb 07, 2008 01:22 am arg, annoying. just trying to figure out the best and most cost effective way to get a preamp and an interface connected to allow the additional tracks i need. a 8 channel interface and an 8 channel pre amp would give me 16 which is perfect for my purposes.
how are these two devices connected?
Feb 07, 2008 11:42 am Any preamp know to me, either has a special made link cable for connecting more then one preamp together. Or, it has a cat5 connector.
This is not to say that this is the only way. I only know what I have seen. There may be away to stack preamps that I am not aware of.
Check with your manufacture. See what they have to say.
Feb 07, 2008 06:57 pm Don't know what the powers like over there, but I've NEVER had ground loop issues chaining equipment unless the units were physically touching eachother and were grounded at the chassis.
EDIT: That being said, I haven't been much out of the realm of Medium Midas/Small Soundcraft, Yamaha and Allen & Heath - Aardvark/Radar 24/Tascam US122, and I don't have that much experience :P.
Aux outs will run to your line ins and mics to your pres. Should be able to get 14 ANALOG inputs on your tascam. 8 mic pres and 6 line inputs.
Feb 08, 2008 01:13 pm Sorry brother, wasn't looking to tick you off. All the information I gave was from personal experience, and my knowledge as an electrical engineer.
I also own a Tascam US122. When I would hook that up to my Dell Inspiron 8600, it was fine, until I turned on the phantom power. With the +48v was on, you could hear the THD% go straight up.
I took a measurement, and found the THD had risen to +10%. When I ground lifted the computer power supply, the THD fell. Bring the transient noise out of the system.
This is why I suggest ground lifting computer devices. Since the mother boards ground throw the power supply. This helps eliminate ground loop potential.
Feb 08, 2008 02:36 pm oh im not mad at you at all! i am totally thankful for all the input you all have put it. i guess i had something set in my head that was just impossible and im just tasting reality, and it is a bitter stew! lol, sorry. i had to say it, it was already in my head.
but seriously, i'm gonna go ahead with the tascam/preamp combo to get as many live hook ups as i can get. the place opens tonight so i'm going to talk to scott the owner and finalize our plans. hopefully within the next few weeks, ill have my first recordings to share with you all.
thanks again for all your help!
