Left hand chords?

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Member Since: Jan 21, 2008

I do not play piano, but I like to compose on a midi drum controller. Basically what I do is assign notes of a certain scale in three different octaves (usually a minor scale)to the drum pads of the M-AUDIO trigger finger and then bang away.

The problem with a setup like this is after I've laid down a good melody, I need to put down some nice chords using a string patch. Now the question is, should the chords be an octave lower than the octave the melody is played in? If so, woudn't the chords sound too bassy or too muddy?

What is a good arrangement rule here?

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Byte-Mixer
Member
Since: Dec 04, 2007


Feb 01, 2008 03:08 am

I'm no great arranger or anything, but I've taken a couple classes and independant studies in composition. But I've had very little music theory really.

Whether they sound cluttered or not depends on the instrument/sound sometimes. But when I'm working with chords in the bass end, I try to keep them more "open" (part of this is that I'm not exactly a concert pianist, and my left hand skills are a bit weak, so I often play octave-intervals in the left when I'm sketching out ideas)

For example, take a D-minor chord,
D F A. What I mean by leaving it open, is play D A D. Or, if you want the minor sound, you could use F D A D, dropping the F down an octave, it keeps the chord nice and open, and you won't have that "cluttered" feeling in the low end.

Of course, there's nothing saying you can't use the chords in the same range as the melody.

Point is, there is no particular "correct" way to handle this, and there is no simple answer. Best I can think is to experiment, and find what works with your style, and what works for the music as a whole.

Anyhoo, someone with more theory/technical knowledge can probably answer better than me. :)

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003


Feb 01, 2008 04:22 am

usually accompaniment chords on piano are an octave lower, i'd say, generally, yeah. you're using strings, but it should still work. strings sometimes don't sound right when they're tight triads, though. so try spreading them out. maybe add the third lower or higher than the other notes in the chord.

Mans reach exceeds his grasp
Member
Since: Oct 23, 2007


Feb 01, 2008 08:15 am

What you could also do too is notch the string patch to create 'room' for the respective drum frequencies. This can get a little bit hairy, but in the long run I've found it's the best option, at least with recording live sounds that is. Midi may be different, unless if you're using live-sample based midi, in which case it should work pretty good, if not better seeing *** all the samples maintain the same timbre and pitch, since they are tailored for their 'perfection.'

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


Feb 01, 2008 09:34 am

Unless I'm missing something, you're wanting to put in some strings, e.g. violin, viola, Chello, d-bass. To do this right, each instrument needs to be seperate and has little to do with the left hand of a keyboard beyond using the keyboard's triggers. You can dig up charts that will show you where each instrument range resides on the grand scale. Keeping each instrument in it's range is a good idea. Utilizing these instruments to create 'chords' is an art. If you just want to use what the keyboard generates in terms of a "string" sound, then do so. Play with it till you find something you like, then per above notch the result with eq to make room for other instruments.

Most composers, look to create sound-scapes whereby two strings no longer project their own sound but together create a blended sound that is desirable. This technique is in stark opposition to the rock-n-roll practice of hacking out sections of one sound to make room for another. This approach to composition is rarely used in R&R as it takes time and practice.

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003


Feb 01, 2008 05:15 pm

i think he means he has a single string patch he's using. like an orchestral strings patch. if that's the case, then i've found that wider chords are usually better. playing a triad with a patch like that sounds muddy and indistinct. playing an octave along with one other note, the fifth, say, fills out the sound. of course, then you don't get the major/minor identity.

other instruments can handle that. the guitar can play a major/minor triad. or the bass can add the third. or you can sub in the third instead of the fifth within that wide octave, i guess, but i just find that that never really works all that well, as the notes are too close together and the string patches are too 'full' to handle that. all in all, i think those full string patches are mostly good for, essentially, power chords and octaves, and you let other instruments take care of the mood.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Feb 02, 2008 11:14 am

Yep, I'm not a music theory person at all. And I do tend to use a lot of strings and pads that require the chord to be a spread that is wider. That tends to give the best results for the most part as forty stated, it doesn't muddy up the sound. String and pad notes that are too close together while being used in music with many other instruments can sound very cluttered. Although there are exceptions to this at times in music that contains only sparse instrumentation.

Member
Since: Jan 18, 2003


Feb 02, 2008 07:13 pm

the thing about those orchestral patches is that they've got many instruments blended together. so if you play a 1 3 5 major triad, it's as if some of the violins are playing 1, some of the other violins are playing 3, etc. some of the cellos are playing different 1, others are playing 5...

i don't know anything about orchestras, but i'm under the impression that maybe that doesn't happen all that often in the real world? maybe the cellos are playing mostly the same thing and the violin is playing a line that brings the third in there? so if you wanted thirds in the strings, it's almost worth your time to really orchstrate something for a string section, following principles that you can find online by googling orchestration.


Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


Feb 03, 2008 12:09 am

It's just like folks here with their guitars. A string conductor has the imprint of each instrument's sound in his or her head and "hears" what the blending will bring about. Dark and full and the chordal structure will be tight, light and airy and they will be pulled appart. It just can't be compared to the left hand of a keyboard. From double bass to violin you are covering quite a few octaves. That's what makes the soundscapes gorgous. Build a chord across four octaves....hard to do with the left hand of a keyboard. I'll use the patches way in the background for some ambiance, but not at all up front as they can't possibly create what I want. Sometimes in a string orchestra a full section will play the same thing to produce power for that line, other times they'll be scattered all over hells half acre to create chords in multiple octaves etc.

This thread warms my heart. Not to slight a guitar, but it is nice to see folks considering the possibility that there might be some other instrument out there.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Feb 03, 2008 08:18 pm

OH lord, don't get me started on there being other instruments out there!

OH, I guess you did. I love using orchestral sounds in ways that would make a conductor cringe. But I have to agree with Walt here. In order for you to leave room for rock instruments you need to follow the rules at least a little bit. And yes, most string sections sound best when the instruments are spread across several octaves. And that theory holds well for some pads as well. But there is always going to be the exception to the rule were that may not apply.

OK, back to the game.

Byte-Mixer
Member
Since: Dec 04, 2007


Feb 04, 2008 02:37 am

Hmmm, making conductors cringe...

Using tone clusters much Noize? :D

Walt has the right of it dealing with orchestration. It's about layering and deciding what kind of "colour" you want to achieve. There are books and entire courses dedicated to Orchestration, as it is an art in and of itself. I've tried to learn at least the basic concepts, and i have a book by Kent Kenan on orchestration, and it's a lot to take in certainly. You could build with octaves in the basses, intervals in the celli, double the violas, and thirds in the violins, and any other combination/permutation depending on the desired coloration and feeling.

I have a piece for wind ensemble on the back burner. right now it's just a piano sketch, and I need to rework and refinish it. (I started it out back in 2002 I think) But it's going for the british isles kinda feel. (Think Vaughn Williams and Gustav Holst, along those lines) My goal is to get the basic idea down using piano notation, with one or two more staff lines to fill in solos and flourishes, and then take that and expand it to a full wind ensemble. I won't be working with strings, but still, it'll be a large undertaking for me. And yes I realize I've went and gone off on a tangent, and I've completely forgotten the point I was shooting for.... um...I should digress. :P

Oh right, I think I was getting along the lines of, the guy's using a string pad, so why are we talking about orchestration? :P

Anyways, to sourberry: dont' sweat it, just play with some chords in the low end, or even in the mid-range, and see what feels right with what you've got going on in your mind's eye. Even if you keep the chords "neutral" the lines from the melody should help fill in the sound. However, if you are interested in orchestration at all (it's handy for getting ideas for creating different textures) I'd recommend buying a book on it, or taking a look at the website with Korsakov's Principals of Orchestration.

www.garritan.com/Rimsky-Korsakov.html

(if anybody wants to take a look)

-J

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Feb 04, 2008 10:20 pm

J-bot, that is exactly it. I was lucky enough to have met John Cage many years ago. One thing I garnered from that encounter is there is no set of instruments that can't be put together and made to fit. It is just a matter of getting the main theme down and working outward from there. And sometimes even the main theme will end up changing to fit the outer pieces in.

Zappa was another that seemed to be able to orchestrate well with combinations of note that seemingly should not have been made to fit together, but he did it.

One of the pieces I have dug up from my past actually used tubas and trombones as the percussion line. An odd timing allowed it to work out pretty well.

Byte-Mixer
Member
Since: Dec 04, 2007


Feb 05, 2008 03:11 pm

Since we got on the topic of odd sounds fitting together:

www.wetink.org/

A site devoted to new music. Some of their stuff is pretty out there. My brother was the treasurer for awhile, when they were getting started, but not anymore.

They used to have a clip of a trombone player doing a percussive line that was cool.

I think we derailed the thread a bit. ^^

-J

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Feb 05, 2008 08:17 pm

Out there or not. I'd like to meet that Katherine Soper!!!

I've heard some of her stuff as well as some of the others, and bit of the Wet Ink stuff. I do agree though that some of it is out there, but then noise art is always considered out there by most. It is hard to grasp for the most part.

MH
Member
Since: Feb 13, 2008


Feb 13, 2008 04:57 pm

If you're talking about a simple melody with a simple string patch, then the approach can be, of course simple. Without discussing the minutia of advanced orchestral arranging, basically your string patch can sit above and below your melody. For example: If your melody held on say a E above middle C, you could play a C chord with that. Your strings could play a low C, middle C, E and G. And so on and so forth. In other words, you don't have to think like a piano player with melody ON TOP of harmony. When you have different instrumentations, you can have different voices in the same range. And as long as there's some logic to your string parts (ie Voice leading), you should be fine.

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