Kick Drum

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Member Since: Apr 05, 2002

Ok, I have been trying everything I can think of to get my kick sounding just the way I want to. I have tried repositioning the mic in all sorts of directions and using different mics, and still I can can't seem to get the sound I am after. Maybe my kick sucks, but I would think there is a way to get close. Now that I am done complaining, here's the deal. My kick has no low'end punch to it. Now, on my eq I have tried boosting some of the lower frequencies, around 50Hz mainly, adn it actually gets closer, but still, when I burn it to cd, it lacks the punch. The closest thing I can think of to describe the sound I am going for is something from either Dave Mathews or even Metallica, adn Justcie for all. I don't really play anything that hard, but that low-end thump is what I am looking for. It almost sounds as if there are two mics recording the kick, and they are slighly offset, meaning that the one picking up the low-end hits a split second before the upper, around 4-5k I think, hits. I am using the AT Kit-Pak that I talked about before, but I have even tried a decent AT condenser mic. The kick may just not be putting it out, not sure, I THINK it is, but when I listen back to what I recorded, it never sounds as if I tihnk it should. Anyways, and radical recording techniques I can try. The best I can do is put the mic about 6 inches away from the hole that is in the head, that seems to deliver better punch. Thanks guys.
Marc (da Sharc)

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Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Apr 07, 2002 01:34 am

Ok Marc, I am gonna give away a little trick here. It's not really a secret, but it is something that will take some work. If you can isolate the kick track, (and I assume you have by the way you describe your effort's) have Sonar convert it into midi note's. I forget exactly where the drop down menu come's from, but just open the manual. Anyway, once you have done this, if you have a sample of a kick or percusion effect that you can tweak the tone of. Drop it on the next track at the time interval's that Sonar found and created midi note's for. If you have a sample synth program use that instead and trigger it with the midi note's. Or if you have an outboard synth and it has a good kick drum sample or sound use that. Then record it as audio and beat it senseless with the EQ. then you can move it back and forth in time untill you get the sound you want. I can go on for hour's about layering sound's and how it work's. But you get the jist of it here. If ou want I can be more explicit, just ask and ye shall recieve.

Noize 2 U

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Apr 07, 2002 06:39 am

Hey Sharc, instead of using the EQ to boost, try cutting the other frequencies. A couple very spendy, and very good, kick drum mics actually scoop out the middle frequencies, and just have the highs and lows emphasized. I forget what these frequency shelves are at, but you can experiament. This method, in addition to apparently boosting the lows and highs(actually it turns down the mids) will also open up the mix to leave room in the middle of the frequency spectrum for the rest of the band.

Member
Since: Apr 05, 2002


Apr 07, 2002 11:03 am

I was already scooping out the mics, pretty cutting all the requencies from about 150 up and leaving the ones at about 4k for the beater smack. I like the suggestion that noise had though, I think that might be what I am looking for because it just seems as if the kick in some pro recordings are not possible to create with a regualr kick. I will try it and let you know how it comes out. I may have to ask more questions because I never work with synths or anything. Gracias.
Marc (Da Sharc)

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Apr 07, 2002 11:41 am

Ask away Marc. There are alot of people who use that technique now, even live. If you ever watch the Letterman show, you will notice that Anton Fig actually has trigger's mounted on all his drum's to trigger a synth or sampler. He has been doing that since the beginning. You can also see them on his kit when they play the R & R Hall of Fame gig. And remember, when you are creating a layered sound, you don't have to use 2 drum sound's. Although that is what you are looking for, It might end up that the missing piece of the tone is the sound of you wacking a plastic garbage can in the garage with a 2 X 4.

Noize 2 U

Member
Since: Apr 05, 2002


Apr 07, 2002 05:13 pm

Hey, I was looking in SONAR and was trying to figure out HOW to convert an audio sound to MIDI, where is it, or what is it called. I have the kick pretty isolated, but I am not sure, will converting a signal take into account the compressor/gate that I have put on it? Or will it try to convert the raw signal? Even raw, its pretty isolated, but I guess I am wanting it to just hit the peaks of the signal and convert those. Thanks for the help. The more I get into this, the more complicated it seems to get, but its also kina cool to be able to have this type of control. I have used triggers in live situations before when I was a drummer, but never thought you could even do this like this. That layering effect may be just what I am looking for because in some of the recordings I hear, it seems like the thud of the bass hits before the smakc does. Maybe a natural acoustic kick with a layered synth is what I want.
Marc (Da Sharc)

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Apr 07, 2002 06:53 pm

Ok Marc, follow the drop down menul like this. Edit,Audio,Extract Timing. You will get to a screen that will give you a series of choice's to adjust the sensitivity and other parameter's. You can choose the midi note you wish to convert it to and all the good stuff. When ever I have used it and thought I had it down, I didn't. It will take a little messin around, but after you monkey with it you will get what you want. You will after the process need to just paste the clipboard into a new track and there your note's will be. I have found that once I get close to what I want for note duration and so on. As long as they are close to the proper time, I will then go and edit note length and velocity and so on in the track itself, rather then try to have it convert a perfect picture. They have even got a pitch detect in there, but I have not used that at all.

If ya need more info just holler, and I'll do what I can for ya.

Noize 2 U

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Apr 08, 2002 06:17 am

ya know, another possible way to get that picture perfect timing and have the good sound to work with would be to sequnce a kick drum in something Like FruityLoops. Then you can get the timing of MIDI data without the MIDI sound...FruityLoops sequences real .wav samples. In addition the sound tweaking features are awesome in the new FruityLoops 3

Member
Since: Sep 05, 2006


Sep 05, 2006 11:51 am

dude
here's a little trick i found that will add punch and no EQ needed, i tried it and it added so much more to my track, i use FL studio 6 Producer edition, but it should work for any program that handles audio find a low end kick drum and load it as a sample, construct your kick drum pattern, do whatever you want to it, triplets rolls whatever you want your kick track to sound like.
Then Copy the whole track and paste it, so that you have two kick Tracks, now copy it again, so now you should have 3 kick tracks, go to the second kick track and load in a medium kick drum, then go to the third kick track and load in a highish kick sample, now play it back and you should hear a more solid characteristic Kick Drum, i use this method because it saves on processor overheads, any effect you use, be it echo, reverb etc uses Processor time, Samples use a lot less.
Hope it helps
Michael

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Sep 05, 2006 12:34 pm

i'd shove a dynamic mic deep inside the drum about 3 inches from the beater head (for click and smack), and throw a condensor about a foot outside with a blanket makin' a tunnel (for boom)....and treat each track accordingly...also that "punch" you're lookin' for lies in the 80-200hz range...and have fun with your compressor...set the threshold way down (like -64) and adjust your attack and release times first...then raise it to where the kick's sound is in time with the song...use an aux buss to setup a tight reverb with compression after it for more bigness (this compression on the verb will give you the 'doooshh' sound).....

good luck

wyd

www.TheLondonProject.ca
Member
Since: Feb 07, 2005


Sep 05, 2006 12:52 pm

I have been stuggling with this for what seems forever (puchy kick). I ended up going with drum substitution software called Drumagog.

www.drumagog.com/

It works great. They have an eval copy to download. You can add you own samples as well but not in the eval.

Member
Since: Apr 27, 2002


Sep 05, 2006 01:00 pm

heres my tip...move the mic back...where do you have this in the kick drum? if its real far in there...then you wont really get a lot of low end thump...itll sound really punchy, but you really need to let those low end waves develop...heres what i do -

take a second kick drum with both heads off of it, put it right up in front of the actually kick drum, so now it looks like you have this huge long kick drum....NOW, put the kick mic dead center facing the beater, but only about half way into the second kick drum...then throw a blanket over it...this allows you to put that kick drum mic further out of the kick drum with less leakage cause of that second kick drum shell...and this acts like a huge sound tunnel...it sounds sick...give it a shot...alot of people have done it on records that youve heard...

then i compress it to make it punch you in the face until your nose breaks...'
-3:1 - 6:1 Ratio (makes the hits a tad more consistent sounding)
- Fast Attack (but no so fast that it doesnt let the initial transient [percussive slap] through
- Medium Fast Release (fast enough that the compressor lets go before the next kick drum beat, but not so fast that it cuts off all the beautiful body of that kick drum tunnel)
- Threshold: set the the threshold that during average consistent playing you get somewhere around 2-3dB of gain reduction

EQ:
i usually try to find those nasty cardboard frequencies and scoop, but they can be anywhere depending on the size/make/build of the kick drum...but youll know when you find them...just get rid of them and itll make a huge difference...also, ive never boosted the low end on a frequency lower than 63hZ, i do believe that 50hZ may be a little much...im more comfortable slightly boosting the low end anywhere from 65hz-100hz...as far as beater smack and presence...go easy on this, i always hear these frequencies being juiced WAY TOO MUCH, you can add presence and air by boosting around 7-10kHz...and beater smack can be anywhere from 1.5-5kHz, if u boost around 1.5 it sounds a little...more of a felt beater smack, but the closer you get to 5kHz, the more plastic it sounds...it depends on what you are going for...really just listen to the effect little EQ adjustments have on the sound and really try to hear the difference little cuts/boosts have at different frequencies and before you know this stuff will start coming together like a puzzle...you can hear a track and know exactly what EQ adjustments you want to make before even sitting at your desk...

Czar of Turd Polish
Member
Since: Jun 20, 2006


Sep 05, 2006 06:44 pm

I love the gog!!!

Check the messageboard and download the small gog pack from SNEAP. He has a fantastic sounding snare for when recording those less than stellar kits.

Member
Since: Sep 02, 2006


Sep 05, 2006 08:02 pm

Didn't have time to read it all, so I'll put a couple of easy and cheap tricks I use. Notice this is just a trick and an advice to get a great kick drum in 2 minutes, just plug and play, but if you want YOUR sound you'd better listen to some other tips and spend more time on it.
TRIGGERING: may sound "unfair", but I need the triggering thing so much in my cheap home-made studio. The best software for triggering drums is Drumagog, download the trial version on www.drumagog.com
Drumagog lets you replace your drum recorded sound (e.g. the kick drum) with any wav sample you want. You could put a burp on the kick, if you record it. Anyways, it brings groups of damn good samples and positions them randomly (getting the sound REAL, as well as every hit is different from the previous hit) and dynamically (you kick it soft, the sample goes soft, you kick it hard, the sample goes hard). Moreover, you can find tons of kick drum (and any drum part) samples on the Internet, I download them on eMule. Uh, Drumagog also lets you to blend the sample sound with your recorded sound. In other words: you can replace it with an already great-recorded tone, or you can use samples to enhance your actually already good tone. Great plugin.
The other advice is, as I read you have the sound you want but you just miss some punch attack, to get a group channel for snare and kick (or the entire drum, depending on what you want) and play on it with compressor and limiter. In that way (be careful to not over-compress the stuff) I gain a great attack. It's just like a pre-mastering. Last but not least, if you didn't before, you may want to skip the group channel part and just master the entire song (eq, compressor and limiter). A good software to get through the mastering process is T-Racks. You can download the trial on www.t-racks.com

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