Trent Reznor Talks About Giving Away Music

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Member Since: Jan 24, 2006

Finally some numbers. I'm cutting and pasting most of this from here

www.nin.com/

Summary is that lets assume he made $2 (very generous) from each CD sale last time) then his gross was ~$65k (which he then has to use to repay costs to the record company). This time 28k people chose to pay $5 = $140k with no costs to repay. He later states disappointment that only 1 in 5 chose to pay.

[quote]
As of 1/2/08,
154,449 people chose to download Saul's new record.
28,322 of those people chose to pay $5 for it, meaning:
18.3% chose to pay.

Of those paying,

3220 chose 192kbps MP3
19,764 chose 320kbps MP3
5338 chose FLAC

Keep in mind not one cent was spent on marketing this record. The only marketing was Saul and myself talking as loudly as we could to anybody that would listen.
If 33,897 people went out and bought Saul's last record 3 years ago (when more people bought CDs) and over 150K - five times as many - sought out this new record, that's great - right? [/quote]

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The Czar of BS
Member
Since: Dec 31, 2007


Jan 17, 2008 04:07 pm

What ever your particular beliefs may be on this subject. I still believe in paying for the music. All of here work in one way or another, in the music industry. If we don't pay, then all of us suffer in some way or another. For myself, the Ipod generation is killing the live music field. Almost every music venue in Philadelphia, has closed. Due to lack of attendance. I am not saying the Ipod itself is directly to blame. Just people who think that we are ripping them off, and refuse to pay anything for downloads or shows.

Member
Since: Jan 24, 2006


Jan 17, 2008 04:14 pm

I'm not sure it's as simple as that Rob. Those who believe in "free" music (voluntarily free not stolen) or subscription models etc.etc. are all based around making money from other sources OTHER than the music.

Examples would be

* using free music to generate live paying audiences

* Using free low qual MP3 to generate sales of the higher quality stuff

* Advertising on the download page

Reznor's deal says that 150k have the music instead of 33k (of course others pirated it) so that's a bigger potential audience.

My personal feelings are that the system is terribly unbalanced. The "business" is making waaaay to much much money and the workers (performers, studio guys etc) not enough, while the consumer is paying waaay too much.

Eat Spam before it eats YOU!!!
Member
Since: May 11, 2002


Jan 17, 2008 04:26 pm

well philly's an odd place too... I'm in ohio and never met a musician that liked the clubs there - even 30 years ago. One guy actually got 'carded' ...as in was kicked out and beat up because he wasn't an AFM member.

The Czar of BS
Member
Since: Dec 31, 2007


Jan 17, 2008 05:20 pm

I see your point, and agree with some of it, not all. I work around a lot of colleges, when ever I do a D.J. event with them. 90% of the time the D.J.'s have pirated the music. Now yes some do pay. And when you add all of the percentages up, the artist does make money. But, in my experiences with working directly with a lot of artist, if they would of made more, then they could do more. Case in point. I worked with Jill Scott for awhile now. She can not tour on her own, due to lack of funds. She has to be on a package tour instead. To help share the cost. Which means fewer tours. She has to wait for long periods of time to record because of the lack of funds. Most of this is due to people not paying.

Now I am not the biggest fan of Clear channel, or Live Nation, or what ever they call themselves these days. And I agree. They do make Way to much, and don't give enough back. But, this problem has spread more to the small guy then the big so far. Many small recording studio's, have closed their doors due to artist having their music pirated and can not afford to pay the bill. And many feel that the cost of touring rigs' is out of control. and that one is hard for me to argue. I see what the cost of a touring rig cost from another side. For us, our new rig cost around 400,000.00 dollars. That is only for the speakers and amps. Nothing else. Now obviously we can not charge a client for the full amount. we do a percentage based scale. As such, we can no longer get any tours. Granted, the cost here is on the manufacturer end. Also, we are not trying to land U2 or any other band of that size. But, the smaller tours, that use to be funded by smaller labels, have just about disappeared. And sorry, but this all came about when people where were downloading music, instead of paying for it.

You mentioned subscription based sites. I don't count them because there are paying ASCAP, and BMI fees. I think they are fine. And free give aways at large events only benefit people like Clear Channel. Give aways at small events come straight out of the artist pocket. That is why you mostly see that at events that have more than one band. But, I still feel that we should support the small guy, and pay for music.

Member
Since: Jan 24, 2006


Jan 17, 2008 05:38 pm

But I think part of my point is that if a CD full of songs cost $3 more people would pay. There was a study on iTunes that if they reduced the price to 10c a song they would reach the point where the increased sales would result in a net increase in profits. Right or wrong people pirate because the music is too expensive. A system where it's sold for $3 where the artist gets what they get today would make far more sense. It's become a business at the high levels with too many people trying to be rich and not enough bands being happy to "make a living", everyone gambles on themselves being the "next big thing" and the system keeps rolling on.

The Czar of BS
Member
Since: Dec 31, 2007


Jan 17, 2008 05:50 pm

Yeah. I agree. If you can reduce the salary of the producers, you would be able to reduce the price of music overall. Producers, publishers, and distributors, have run a muck for awhile now. Even still, I don't know if you can cut the cost enough to make a CD only $3. To get a amazing sounding CD, you do have to spend an amazing amount of money on gear. Doing it yourself is great, and you can get incredible sound from a home studio. But, for that extra step, cost a lot.

Member
Since: Jan 24, 2006


Jan 17, 2008 06:18 pm

Yes, not a $3 cd, $3 to download an album.

Frisco's Most Underrated
Member
Since: Jan 28, 2003


Jan 17, 2008 06:47 pm

I'm just making this up off the top of my head, and before I get too far, I'd like to say, there is no simple answer, but lots of factors play into the overall condition right now.

Basically, I was thinking though, the Ipod has basically helped people become a fan of songs, and not a fan of albums, or a fan of bands. Combine this with the fact that major label promotion focuses so much on a single, that you don't have fans that are familiar with a breadth of an artists work. Obviously I'm speaking very generally here, right. So, what might be happening is that people don't want to go to shows because they're not fans of the act. Who's gonna pay good money to go see someone perform ONE song that they like.

I also think it's pretty bull **** when a DJ pirates music to play at a party. Actually, I think it's pretty reprehensible, unless they are volunteering their time as a dj. Cuz I know they want to get paid for THEIR work!

Also, around here, the price of shows has gone up quite a bit 'round my way. Used to go to a good show for $5 - $10 for underground acts (circa 2002). Now, we're looking at like 20 to 25 often times, and I'm really not trying to pay that much for an underground act.

I think bottom line though is, most people act as if music has no value!

www.TheLondonProject.ca
Member
Since: Feb 07, 2005


Jan 17, 2008 07:23 pm

I'm not sure that people pirate because CD's are too expensive. I think they pirate because it is free. If the cost was dropped to next to nothing they would still download it for free. IMO of course.

www.TheLondonProject.ca
Member
Since: Feb 07, 2005


Jan 17, 2008 07:25 pm

also, to pay for music downlads you need a credit card. This eliminates a lot of potential customers. They need a retail outlet like Virgin records to handle cash transactions. Something along the lines of bringing your iPod in and have 20 songs loaded for $10.

The Czar of BS
Member
Since: Dec 31, 2007


Jan 17, 2008 08:10 pm

Coolo makes a good point. The way of the album has fallen out of favor. And you do hear more of "Hey did you hear that song?" instead of "Hey I just bought this album!" In fact most people will look at you cross eyed at the near mention of an album these days. And Beerhunter also hit the nail on the head with as long as they can get it for free, they will. This is the reason that I pay for my music. There are a good deal of bands out there that I consider friends. Even if I am working on their shows I still make a point to buy a CD from them. We all know how hard it is out there to make a living. If your not suppoting the music, then your just chopping yourself off at the knees.

A small pie will soon be eaten
Member
Since: Aug 26, 2004


Jan 17, 2008 08:16 pm

I think the subscription method is the way things will end up.

Basically you can build up a massive library online and download your songs from anywhere in the world.

Pay for the song once and it's yours forever.

A company called Steam have been doing this for some time for games and it's great. You never have to worry about losing or damaging you CD/DVD.

www.steampowered.com/v/index.php

It's also a great marketing tool for artists.

This also cuts a lot of packing costs so despite the cheaper price online the artist still has room for upsides.

As for the credit cards, I-tunes already has cards you can buy that contain credit for use online.


Member
Since: Jan 24, 2006


Jan 17, 2008 09:52 pm

Beerhunter, you are overlooking one factor. If you made it $3 to buy an album (or 10c for single) then you would remove a significant portion of pirates AND bring in a whole new set of people.

The cash problem is fixed by selling cards the way they do xbox points and itunes cards.

I think Coolo has a good point about no loyalty to bands.

Rob, consider that by buying the CD at full price you are continuing the illusion of a working system. They'd be better off selling you a card for $3 to go download it - being extreme of course but I'm trying to make a point.

These things always turn into piracy discussions, this is never my point. My point is that piracy exists due to a broken system. Fix the system and piracy will decrease and you'll find whole new audiences.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jan 17, 2008 10:19 pm

BeerHunter hit it on the head. Best Buy has the little make your own Cd thing going on and it is well worth the price for those who don't want that whole album thing. I know they are not the only once doing it so the machine is out there and working for the kids that don't have credit and want to pay cash. That is becoming a much more popular way to go these days. I know at the Best Buy I frequent all 6 of the stations are always busy and there is a line waiting often times.

Pirating music will be and has been there all along, it isn't anything new at all. And the record companies always made their money even in my day when you copied a friends album to tape, yes I'm talking reel to reel here, then 8 track and then cassette.

Now it is just much easier to do with the internet and computer's. It hasn't gotten any more out of control then it was back then. Just easier, and the record companies simply missed jumping on the correct selling practices.

As for Trent, well he is proving that even and unknown artist such as the case above can make a killing and still give music away.

The giving away thing is only temporary at that kind of level. And remember, they are only giving away a low quality product, not the higher quality stuff. And Trent has always taken piracy into account, most artist's today do. That is why you will see more of them selling their own wares as independent then signing with a major. The major labels on on their death bead of they keep going the route they have been.

I will of course keep buying music from the artist direct as often as I can.

Rob makes a good point as well about small shows. They have a rough road to travel, I know because I've been there. And also on big production national tours, back in the day the money wasn't really all that good.

And in my bar days, Bars didn't own their own systems, you owned your own or rented a system for yourself. Times have changed that way and that reflects the cost of a show now.

My youngest now 16 still goes to a place just for teens called The Garage, as did Tuna before him. They get in for anywhere from $3 to $5 depending on how many higher name acts are playing. The reason the cost is so low is that the Garage is supported by a volunteer staff for the most part, and their gear is paid for by donation. They have a killer sound system, which I was part of the donation and the rigging and set up as well as teaching the staff how to run it. But we need more clubs like that for the younger crowd so they can get a taste of what it is like. And they will eventually grow to bigger shows and buy the acts music.

On an average night at this place a band that comes in with their own CD's, most of which are produced locally by small studio's. And funny enough if they are a worthy sounding act, they sell to well over 50% of the kids that come to see them. As well as regular merch. When was the last time you got a band T-shirt for $5.00? These kids do most times.

And these little bands are supporting themselves completely independent of a major label. So it can be done, no question about it. It takes some effort, but they get it done.

The Czar of BS
Member
Since: Dec 31, 2007


Jan 17, 2008 10:55 pm

Well Noize2u. My wife and I had this big reply lined up. But, the server timed us out. And that's OK, most of the points we where trying to post, you made. So, there you have it. By the way, where is that club at? Sounds interesting.

The Czar of BS
Member
Since: Dec 31, 2007


Jan 17, 2008 11:01 pm

The only point that is missing that we wanted to make, is the liner notes and credits are of value. Something we miss nowadays. you hear a song, and you have no idea of who it is, or who played in the band.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jan 17, 2008 11:08 pm

Its in Burnsville, MN. There are a couple more near here, one of which is in Shakopee just west of me. The Garage however is the best around the Twin Cities area though for strictly Teen club type places. They get national acts in at least twice per month. Most are indy bands and such, but both my youngest are into finding new music all the time.

And that is also a good point Rob. I truely miss the cover art and all the good stuff that came with vinyl. CD's can do a pretty good job, but man I miss seeing the big album covers.

Speaking of, my oldest son bought me a copy of Iowa by Slipknot. It is a limited edition of only 500 pressings. It will probably never get on the turntable, but who knows, just one listen and then its away to the vinyl vault.

But ya, having all the info right there is a big thing for me. That is why I prefer to buy the CD already done. Although I have bought a few of the down loadable ones that came with printable cover art and liner notes. But those are still few and far between.

The Czar of BS
Member
Since: Dec 31, 2007


Jan 17, 2008 11:15 pm

It's a shame. A friend of my wife and I just returned from Minneapolis. Could of directed him there.

As for rare albums, we have a CD box set of The Velvet Underground with the yellow banana still on the cover!

Question? Have any rare Replacments albums?

Ne'er ate 'er
Member
Since: Apr 05, 2006


Jan 18, 2008 12:37 am

Upstart musicians have a tough time today, but they always did.

Artists have always been screwed in one form or another, and it was almost always because they weren’t astute enough about the ways of business.

Light bulb, if you will:

From time immemorial, from the court jesters, to the slaves, to the Vaudevillians, artists have always performed with the artistic sides of their brains (right side) and the managers and mathematicians with the left sides of their brains (analytical).

The jesters and musicians, dancing merrily away, and mainly hoping for approbation and recognition, gladly give control to the more pragmatic left-brained managers.

The truly smart and talented musician knows how to handle the business end of his or her affairs.

I’m still working on mine.


www.TheLondonProject.ca
Member
Since: Feb 07, 2005


Jan 18, 2008 02:50 am

One thing that has swayed this piracy thing way out of control is what Noise touched on a bit. The problem has always been there. Since it is so easy to get music these days there is a lot more music being copied. Back in the day (lol) we were happy if we could copy music from tape to tape twice as fast as real time. Given the tools back then I would have copied more if time was permitting. Now there isn't really a time constraint and that allows for a lot more piracy to take place.

It also devalues the music as many times it is quickly listened to (sometimes not at all) and discarded. What is the monetary value of a song that has never been played? The RIAA should only be compensated if the song has been played not if it has been downloaded.

...well I would have more to write but gotta get to my blog...

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


Jan 18, 2008 09:19 am

To touch a little on what Noize had to say;

I the day of vinal, those to include me who didn't have the money to buy albums would borrow one and record it to tape or record it from the radio. We were happy to have a lesser quality copy.

I personaly look at the the labels as the origionators of the problems. I believe that the greed there is causing a great portion of the problem. I have no in depth studies to substantiate my guess. Per the origin of this thread, if I were to market my own material I would be happy to give my music to radio, web radio, dj's, etc. as marketing cost.

There is one huge paradym to over come however. People are programed to believe if it costs more it is better. This is a strong belief that especially in music has little to do with reality. People let the industry depict what is valuable and then complain in many cases about the industries choices, yet they will pass up the indy artist's offerings because it has not been validated by the industry. Anyway, this is to big for me to even think through per thread. Enough to say changes are a commin!

Member
Since: Jan 24, 2006


Jan 18, 2008 10:43 am

A quick reply to one thing. There's no reason that more expensive CD's with packaging and books and extra DVD's can't be available as well for those that want them. But charging $10 or more for downloads is where the problem comes. I think the answer is 128mp3's at a low price with higher quality stuff and CD's still an option. Even CD's would cost less if it was less of a business.

The music industry has forgotten that it's role is to deliver music from bands to listeners. It thinks it's the point.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jan 18, 2008 10:12 pm

tony, Walt. You guys hit it on the head as it were. The recording industry became greedy, or I should say greedier. It isn't the artist getting rich anymore it is the record companies. Living off the countless hours of work of way to many others. I would bet if you combine the salaries of the 20 top selling bands it would not equal that of just one record company CEO.

And the worst part of it is that we as artist's allowed it to happen. Instead of simply saying no and banding together to take back what is ours we all sold out, myself included.

So although the blame lies heavily on the record companies we need to accept a bit of it as well for being sold a bill of goods and accepting it.

I personally support small record labels as much as I can. Some of our members labels such as Trinity, Poor Boy Record, and an associated Asian Man Record that I recently found thanx to our own Johnny Hero. There is great stuff to be had out there and we just need to support it more. I am weening myself slowly off the major label stuff and buying direct from the artist when I can as with Radiohead, NIN and a few more but it is going to take time.

My opinion is its time for a revolution, and it isn't going to start by itself. Simply stop paying the major labels for their over priced stuff and start searching out new music through the indy labels. You would be surprised at what is out there.

OK, second rant in one thread, I never do this. Accept on this subject.

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