new member with question about home recording
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Posted on Dec 25, 2007 07:46 pm
Shirley Kirsten
pianist/recording artist
Member Since: Dec 25, 2007
Glad I found this forum. I have spent thousands in recording costs for my many classical music CDs, which obtained very good reviews, but I am not sure I can continue the spending to put out further disks. Thinking about setting up a home recording studio. The issue for me as a classical concert pianist, is that I need high quality sound results and I would like to record on either my Steinway grand or an Aeolian treasure that is unforunately a bit to reverberant. Even without the sustain pedal, I get too much running over tones..so the Steinway would be my safest bet. Problem is that about two years ago, a sound engineer came here, and hooked up all his eqiupment and ended up placing the mikes inside the piano.. the result was I heard conspicuous pedal impulses. Without having to spend thousands of dollars, can I get some decent equipment to record myself here in my studio and make into a decent CD. I am talking repertoire of Scarlatti, Mozart, Schubert, Chopin in the main. Thanks for your advice. www.cdbaby.com/cd/shirleyk
By the way, a friend of mine brought a Sony handycam and in short order did a recording/visual that was amazingly good as per sound. I was pretty astonished that the built in mike was so impressive. I think this might be good for You Tube uploading but not for much of anything else.
Is there such as thing as a CD recorder that has the built in mike.. If so, what do you recommend.
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Dec 25, 2007 08:14 pm Welcome to the forum, Shirley!
I am by no means an expert on miking acoustic pianos, but I know it is something of an art.
Many of the newer portable digital recorders with built-in microphones can yield excellent results for your needs. Some of the other members here are more knowledgeable about the latest models.
Here's a couple of threads to get you started:
www.homerecordingconnecti...10147&frm=1
www.homerecordingconnecti...14447&frm=1
Herb
Keith WarrenMans reach exceeds his graspMember
Since: Oct 23, 2007
Dec 25, 2007 08:32 pm Welcome :)
As for a CD recorder, that's not really my forte, as I'm an aspiring and ever learning sound engineer. If you're looking to purely record piano to disk so to speak, then what Herbs got laid out for you is a good start. If you're looking to produce an orchestral piece, you may be better off getting into the Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) side of things.
For miking??
Quite the goal you have here. It's not hard to get great acoustic piano sounds with the person playing (which you sound to be,) the right mics and mic placement, but the mic placement is going to depend very heavily on the dynamics and size of the room you're working with. When working with live piano, there's alot to consider; what type of sound are you looking for? What have you got to work with? Have you considered the rooms acoustics? Whats your budget and how can it be best applied?
Not to scare you off, I've heard amazing recordings from 10$ USB microphones on an upright piano before. It's all going to come down to the big first question we all ask ourselves when going into home recording: How much do I want to commit to this? The answer to that will often lead you to research your methods and/or options more specifically.
I guess, in short, ummm, welcome and we're all here to help! :)
Dec 25, 2007 08:53 pm Shirley, it really depends on how complicated you want to get with recording. Since you're a classical pianist, the commitment seems obvious.
Are you wishing to record piano only, in one take per performance? If so, a simple, high quality portable recorder will probably work for you.
If you want to get into editing and multitrack projects, then the DAW route as Keith mentioned will be the better way to start.
Keith WarrenMans reach exceeds his graspMember
Since: Oct 23, 2007
Dec 25, 2007 09:00 pm Yeah, what Herb said. :)
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Dec 26, 2007 12:06 am Hi Shirley, welcome to HRC.
AS Herb stated and I'm sure your already aware. Recording the piano, especially a grand can get a bit complicated. But it can be done even on a budget as was stated as well.
I'll ask a bit about the details of the room you're going to record in to get us started. Size, type of flooring, wllcovering etc. This will help with getting you going on good mic choices and later help get a good idea of position's that will benefit the sound you're looking for as well.
Also, what kind of a budget are you looking to set for this venture?
Dec 28, 2007 05:18 am Thanks for all your input. I have three pianos in my very high, vaulted ceiling living room just to give you the acoustic perspective, but the wall to wall carpet soaks up desired resonance. Certainly the fact that there are harmonics bouncing off these should be considered. Because I have easily spent about 7k on three cd projects using a local recording engineer, I must cut down my expenses on further projects. I am definitely not a one take artist, so if I used the cd recorder, I would literally have to use each disk to refine a work to my liking. And then if I wanted a master, I would be a generation away from my original input. I guess if I handed the local sound guy several disks with the best of each selection, he could then put them together, but that would run up my costs and defeat the home recording effort. Among my three pianos, the Steinway grand is not necessarily producing what I am looking for, though the one You Tube produced, had as mentioned, amazing sound using the Steinway. I took the You Tube off because the staging was not good. The playing was. Ideally, if I had big bucks I would look for some good stand up mikes and go for a composite. I really think with classical the mikes need to be farther away and not placed against the dampers. I'm told I need to get a Mac for Pro Tools; a mixer, etc. Dream on.. This will cut into my budget right now. Recording for me is my growth vehicle. Even though I have done eons of live performances in this culturally lackluster area of California, the process of recording and putting out my disks where critics are listening and writing about them, keeps me on my toes. It encourages a significant expansion of repertoire in short order. Anyway, I am needing to cut to the chase in the most cost effective way, without a major artistic compromise. Incidentally, I could write reams about my ups and downs in the recording/mastering process. Basically I send my Master out to Berkeley to David Bowles, Grammy nominated Classical producer, and have it copied 1x in real time.. I also insist that my audiofiles be converted to master in real time. Around here, everyone is doing the 4x and compressing. Not to my liking.
zekthedeadcowEat Spam before it eats YOU!!!Member
Since: May 11, 2002
Dec 28, 2007 07:28 am how is the ambient noise in the room... like if you're just stand it it do you hear air conditioning, traffic, birds, etc.
The few times I recorder piano I placed my most accurate mic about 3ft away (this was in an apartment kitchen/dining room though :) ) and I just used one mic and kept it mono. The mic I used was defiantly not designed for this purpose (Sennheiser ME66K6) but I'm pretty sure an equivalent instrument mic is made.
Also as far as recording system. Go with whatever platform you are most comfortable with... personally I use Linux... audio applications are very mature on everything... The soundcard choice is usually what goofs up. I would recommend a firewire device (I use an Edirol FA-66) You want to record at a fairly high resolution which shouldn't be too hard because as a classical pianist you'd probably only want 1 or 2 tracks anyway... so at least 24bit 192khz which will give plenty of room for processing.
Finding the correct position will probably be the hardest if you're recording yourself... because you can't stand 5 feet away while playing. If you know someone who plays you can have them play and wander around the room a bit to find a good sounding spot... you you can record from the pianists perspective and place the mic right behind/above your head while playing (some people 'vocalize' while playing though)
The nice thing is that once you're set up you can record everything you do because you won't have to change anything.
Dec 28, 2007 10:10 am Thanks for the excellent information and advice. There isn't much ambient noise. I live on a very quiet, treelined block and rarely do I hear any sirens, car engines, etc. I shut off heating or A/C when I sometimes record to my cassette driven JVC, using a Shure mike--MIT 435 (made in Taiwan, apparently, but has Cinc. Ohio above on label), propped on the fireplace a few feet from my Steinway M grand. These recordings are just practice runs for me, but I notice that the pianos farthest away from this mike that is in a holder, eliminate the pedal impulses.
My recording engineer told me to max out and try to hit the hot zone to eliminate any casette driven hisses, but I have found that directive to hurt the balance and sound quality. I wouldn't ever use a cassette to CD process in any case.
TallChapAnswer:On a good day, lipstick.Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004
Dec 28, 2007 12:10 pm Welcome Shirley.
I'm no expert on piano at all, but I have heard some nice (and I mean NICE) recordings where a contact type microphone was used (tape like thing that sticks to the piano or whatever instrument it's put on). C-Ducer?
I'd have thought a couple of small diaphragm condensers a few feet apart might work if they are aimed into the raised lid. Experimentation, I guess.
By the way, whoever told you that you [i]need[/] Protools is not doing you any favours. There are equally good systems to be had for far less money.
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Dec 28, 2007 12:17 pm heh, TC turned the italics on =).
Dec 28, 2007 01:07 pm My local recording engineer is into Pro Tools, but a far more respected fellow, David Bowles, an exclusive Classical music producer is not. He once wrote me an email about what program he uses. I will go back and look. The local fellow does largely rock, band, heavy metal, and those styles are far different from the finesse needed for classical.. esp. Baroque ornamentation and trills.. that must be crystal clear.
Dec 28, 2007 01:09 pm By the way the local sound man told me to do MIDI and bring my edited stuff to him .. But frankly all the MIDI performances I have heard, for instance, on Classical Music Archives, have an artificial sound.
Dec 28, 2007 01:09 pm Most of the higher end software all does the same stuff, some people are still stuck in ProTools because they have to be to make their work portable...able to go from studio to studio...but it's not cheap and it's not any better than anything else.
Sonar, Cubase, Vegas, Acid...there are lots of others that do the same thing, it's simply a matter of which software you feel most comfortable with...
As far as MIDI goes...it IS artificial, that said, depending on your sample quality and tweak time, you can make some rediculously awesome MIDI stuff.
Dec 28, 2007 03:46 pm Anyone familiar with Sony RCD-W500C CD Recorder--I see that they sell this at local Guitar Center. I tend to favor Sony products, and love Sony recordings of classical pianists.
GregorMember
Since: Jan 08, 2004
Dec 28, 2007 04:03 pm I've heard good things about ribbon mics and piano. I've never personally recorded a piano but would love to some day.
Oh yeah I tried clicking on your webpage link and "page not found" came up.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Dec 28, 2007 09:40 pm Hey Shirley in regard to the midi your friend mentioned. Have you ever heard the Native Instruments software called Akoustik Piano? That is one of the piano software synths I use and it is no less then remarkable. Here is a link to a review I did on it a while back. www.homerecordingconnecti...tory&id=664
I grew up with a mother who prayed I would be a concert pianist. Sadly for her I did not, which was OK with me though. Anyway, this is probably the best of the best in my eyes. If you would like I can upload a file for your listening.
But back to the recording of your grand. I guess we never did figure out what kind of budget you are wanting to work with, that might help a little to select a range of mic's that can be used.
But I'll start with one of my favorites which is a Royer SF-1. Not in a lower price range but a great mic for piano. Their lower priced ribbons are good as well like the 121 or 122. The SF-1 is a very accurate mic, but could be too accurate for the sound you desire. The 121 or 122 might suit your needs better.
If I am getting what your after it sounds like you wish to get a good deal of the room rather then the mechanics of the piano itself?
And I had a quick listen to a few of your piece's. Nicely done if I might say so.
Dec 29, 2007 05:43 am Thanks for the nice comments on my audio samples.. Yes, I have heard about various programs where with MIDI you can well simulate the sounds of Bosendorfer, Steinway, etc. but if you start with a digital piano, there are issues of how unregulated the keyboard is in the first place.. where accented notes poke out in unwanted places. So taking that challenge and filtering it to a grand piano sound still doesn't conquer the original technical weaknesses. I assume that I would not want to take my Steinway grand and MIDI it.
I guess my budget would be a max of $2000. I have a windows XP PC that is about to crash so I guess I might have to go Mac.. or try the CD recorder thing which I see involves hooking up to an amplifier. I read some reviews where some users had problems with the SONY hookup. Maybe I could see where the connections re: output on my JVC cassette recorder and replace with the Sony model connectors.
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Dec 29, 2007 03:06 pm While I agree that midi can be tuff to control it isn't impossible. I use a very high end controller that is a hammer action piano weighted keyboard. A wonderful piece of kit to use for articulation of most any synth sounds. I'll try and pop a piano piece up this afternoon using the Bosendorfer or a Steinway just for fun.
As for the budget that is very do-able really. What kind of PC are you running XP on? I"ll be very honest, with a Mac $2000 won't go very far at all. A PC fix or slight upgrade might do better. And the Cd recorder would be another viable option as well.
I think whichever option you choose you will make the bigger portion of the investment in the microphone and pre amp set up.
Dec 30, 2007 03:25 am thanks for your input.. So if I use the CD recorder, Sony model, wouldn't that have a built in mike, and not require additional miking?
Dec 30, 2007 03:29 am What is the high end, hammer weighted digitial keyboard you referred to?
Dec 30, 2007 02:08 pm Does anyone know about the program SADiE, developed for the BBC). Are CD-Rs only 16-bit?
I am told that most professionals
have been recording at 24-bit for years now and would not want to do
any less (this gives more dynamic range).
Dec 30, 2007 02:12 pm All CDs are burned at 16 bits (Red Book Standard). Your burner will automatically convert, regardless of the bit depth of the original recording. 24 bits? It's all good there. 96 dB of dynamic range is all you'll need anyway.
Dec 30, 2007 02:13 pm ...and actually the final product is around 12 to 13 bits, but I will spare you those anal-retentive details :-)
Noize2uCzar of MidiAdministrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002
Dec 30, 2007 02:49 pm Hey Shirley, yes the Sony CD recorder will have a built in mic set up. On the higher end recorder's the mic is usually pretty decent fro record with. Anything lower though and the mic quality is not that good, but still acceptable depending on the end product you desire.
Fatar is the company that makes the majority of the keyboards for controllers and synths around the world. www.fatar.com/home_fatar.htm
Studio Logic is the part of the company that makes the complete controller assembly. www.fatar.com/Studiologic/home_studiologic.htm
I use an older model from the SL series. An 88 key piano weighted with hammer action. It is velocity sensitive to give good articulation and the like. It is programable for different velocity curves and the like for use with different pieces of software and different playing styles. It is a bit different to get used to playing on one as the sound is not directly part of the controller. But with practice it isn't much different from playing the real thing. For me it is the fact I do not have room for a grand here.
AS for SADiE, yes I have worked with the system. It was developed and modeled somewhat like the Otari Radar system which is a stand alone DAW set up as well. Their prices are pretty competitive and the gear is very well built and high quality. They have everything from a standalone system to interfaces that will integrate with PC or laptops. Nice gear for sure.
AS for the bit rate. IF you know you are going to be editing and such with the tracks then it is a good idea to record in 24 bit to give yourself headroom to work with. If not the simple fact that the adio gets dithered down to 16 bit or less in the end for CD make it a moot point for those that don't need to be editing or such. Depending on the project I will record even higher if I need the extra resolution. But sometimes a client just wants the quick down and dirty so recording in 16 bit is just fine.
Dec 31, 2007 11:05 am Thanks for all this valuable info. I think the private recording engineers are always down on home recording efforts. They always try to convince the novice in this arena that the best equipment is at the studio.
When I had my audiofiles written to master there were high pitched hiss tones that ruined several. It was touch and go, and a race to a deadline. That taught me a lesson..don't rely on the sound engineer.
Dec 31, 2007 11:08 am Professional Engineers down on home recording because they have to protect their business...the same way union machinists down on people using the less expensive, just as high quality (sometimes better) private machine shops...or union automobile makers say to "buy American" regardless of the differences in quality...
It's self preservation, and many pro studios have already been forced to close their doors because home engineers ARE getting great quality recordings...
sticadokid*sticado: short and LOUD!*Member
Since: Feb 25, 2005
Dec 31, 2007 12:43 pm the quality of what you record has to do with how much money u'll put into your home studio... if not, it'll sound according to how much time and effort you put into mixing.
if ur just recording a piano, id say, ull need a mic, xlr cable, interface, and rcording software... its about that simple.
i dont know what your price range is, so i cant really think of any suggestions. mine would be either very expensive or very cheap (i just get stuff that i know ill like forever or something that can barely hold me over until i can get the good stuff).
go onto www.musiciansfriend.com or somethin and search up the small list i gave u. but dont buy anything until u talk to a few ppl on this site! they've helped me out so much in the past and kept me from buying some really stupid things that i thought would be good
Tim NUh, at least one more time . . .Member
Since: Feb 07, 2007
Jan 02, 2008 09:32 pm As far as the miking goes, I recall reading some things in one of the following magazines: Mix, Recording, or Sound on Sound. If I can find the issue(s), I'll post it. I do recall an interesting article about how Tori Amos miked up her piano--she owns and operates a first-rate studio with her husband; they and their engineer definitely know a thing or two about recording pianos.
cooloFrisco's Most UnderratedMember
Since: Jan 28, 2003
Jan 03, 2008 01:03 pm I don't remember the guy's name that was doing a free online tutorial for how to mic/record/mix different instruments. Pretty big name/experience supposedly. Anyways, hopefully someone will know who I'm talking about, but I remember reading some of his early stuff and there were some interesting tips on recording pianos. Maybe someone else can chime in with the guys name and site?
Jan 03, 2008 01:04 pm Bruce is his name, last name escapes me, yeah, grammy winner and stuff...
cooloFrisco's Most UnderratedMember
Since: Jan 28, 2003
Jan 03, 2008 01:07 pm yeah, that guy!
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Jan 03, 2008 02:00 pm I don't have much to offer on micing piano, but I would think that you would want a stand-alone microphone and not one that's built-in to a recorder. That would allow you much more flexibility (both literal and figurative) in micing positions and techniques. Plus, its rare that only 1 mic is used to capture an instrument with such complexity to it. Usually different mics will be used in different positions to pick up different nuances of the instrument.
I can only provide an example of an acoustic guitar since I don't play or record piano. But on an acoustic guitar, I'd put one small-diaphragm condensor mic at about the 12th fret or where the neck meets the body, anywhere from 8" - 3' away from the instrument depending on how much room ambience I'm going for. Then another small-diaphragm condensor at the bridge or lower bout, at the same distance and in phase with the first mic.
The neck mic picks up the definition of the instrument, the string noise, the fret rattles, the midrange and high frequency parts of what makes a guitar sound like a guitar. Then the bridge mic picks up the lower end, the resonance of the body, and any finger/pick noise. Then in my mixing software I'll blend the 2 tracks together to produce the best of both worlds (or maybe just use 1 or the other...its my damn recording, I can do what I want!) :-D
So really I'd suggest a setup that will allow you to experiment with mic placement, multiple microphones and blending of signals to achieve the sound you want. Maybe you can close-mic but somehow edit out the pedal noise you speak of, and blend that with a more distant mic that picks up more of the room ambience and masks the editing done on the close-up track.
TadpuiI am not a crook's headMember
Since: Mar 14, 2003
Jan 03, 2008 02:54 pm That was a good little read there Coolo. And it reinforces the use of the most useful piece of equipment that any of us have: our ears!
