Serious Question, Truly would appreciate opinions

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Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member Since: May 10, 2002

Here in Detroit some folks put together a fund raiser for a Veteran's NPO which provides transitional housing, food, etc. for returning vets. I am only tangentialy involved, our band along with seven other bands agreed to perform as a donation. We have either been in or have others close that are or have been. I got a note form the organizer asking for help marketing as he has contacted every media in the Detroit area, TV, Radio, Print, with absolutly Zero, Zip, Ziltch interest. The venue has about a 1000 person capacity.

My Question:

What the hell is that?

Is this a subject no one wants to think about? Is it something no one gives a damn about? Is the media (and not all huge business) that much of a money grubbing buracracy to become involved? Is our global, or Detroit sub culture society that narcissistic? Or am I just missing something here?

Tickets are a mere $10.00 and 100% goes to the NPO, no pockets inbetween.

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Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


May 29, 2007 09:01 pm

i donno, my guess is people have a hard time discerning the difference between supporting troops, and supporting the war...they are different.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


May 29, 2007 09:17 pm

no, they are not different...as much as anti-war protesters would like to believe it, it's not.

I support wattage, but not the amplifiers...whatever...

Eat Spam before it eats YOU!!!
Member
Since: May 11, 2002


May 29, 2007 09:19 pm

because you have to pay media outlets for everything...even nonprof outlets... fee is usually $300 with atleast a month notice.. usually 2 months.

This is because a nonprofit organization usually pays it's organizers... so broadcasters don't give anyone a free ride.

Ran into this ALOT when in a christian band...

----
edit
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They will probably learn very quickly that concerts are a very bad way to raise money.

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


May 29, 2007 09:28 pm

i've got a cousin that's over there...we keep in touch via e-mail and i know he looks forward to hearin' what's gooin' on in the homeland...i've sent him some real cool music etc...now it's not much as say donating a bunch of money, or cornstarch or whatever, but i know i'm supporting his moral....i hate this stupid f'n war and everything it stands for and if you were right, i'd hafta not support my cousin because of that....i think they are different, it's different for me to help out friends/family in their time of need eventhough i think they're crazy for signing up in the first place.

Eat Spam before it eats YOU!!!
Member
Since: May 11, 2002


May 29, 2007 11:16 pm

People have gone back and forth on the morality of our invasion of Iraq... so I'll just leave a quote that I think best applies to this type of conflict.

Stargate SG1 (2002) - Meridian
[quote]
Oma Desala: The universe is vast and we are so small. There is only one thing we can truly control.
Daniel Jackson: What's that?
Oma Desala: Whether we are good or evil.
[/quote]

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


May 29, 2007 11:33 pm

Well, gotta thank you guys!

Simply reading these few answers answer my questions.

Wow.

A small pie will soon be eaten
Member
Since: Aug 26, 2004


May 30, 2007 08:27 am

Well there IS a difference between our soldiers and war, irrespective if you're for or against.

Detroit? Hue's from there too i think.

Maybe he can give some input.





Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


May 30, 2007 08:39 am

Yes, there is a difference between soldiers and war, but if you support the soldiers you hope for success, that is what support is, in hoping for success you are supporting the war. Pretty simple really.

As far as Walt's issue, I think it's pretty simple, at least here in the blue state of Minnesota, I would guess no media outlets would be interested either because they only mention the war if it undermines the effort. They are only looking for ways to make the US look bad, not anything good about the war, only bad. Should they support an effort trying to help it would contradict their agenda of biting the hand the feeds them.

As far as the war itself...it wouldn't be nearly the clusterfuck that it is right now if the fatcat politician idiots in Washington would STFU and let the military generals run the war. And that goes for both sides. The cause in Iraq, I think is a good one, but I also think it's a waste of time. Those people I don't think know what to do with freedom based on what I see. Wanting to give it to them is great, however when we have the military being in a strangehold by politicians that know nothing, well, it's a recipe for trouble.

Prince CZAR-ming
Member
Since: Apr 08, 2004


May 30, 2007 08:47 am

Thinking out loud, I'm thinking that if you played that angle, you'd get a lot more people interested to come:

Our local media zealots wouldn't even be part of this promotion / fundraiser without compensation, so we have to market this project "grass roots". Help us support our returning troops, etc, etc.

it may work, may not =/

A small pie will soon be eaten
Member
Since: Aug 26, 2004


May 30, 2007 08:53 am

I can personally support and wish for our soldiers wellbeing without supporting the war.

I'm not taking a contrary position to you at all, not ONLY do YOU have to put up with the decision's in Washington, we have those decisions relayed by our pussy of a prime minister.

Australia is you're lapdog

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


May 30, 2007 09:17 am

My "Issue" definately lies on many levels. To editorialize my ogre peals would be cruelty to the readers of HRC to be honest.

Even with the most self centered perspective having a facility to offer transitional services to the troups that need them saves me grief.

I am also suspect that the media is redicent donate to any cause as the requests would pour in from every direction and could even mount to legal actions from more militant groups. But that is purly suposition on my part as I have no example to site.

Regardless; I do truly appreciate the responses as I want to make the 'best of it'. And maybe it will just bust, in which case I will have some idea why.

A small pie will soon be eaten
Member
Since: Aug 26, 2004


May 30, 2007 09:25 am

Hey Walt,

Is someone taping this gig?

Wouldn't mind seeing it.

On an off note

I'm getting tired of this 'content link' stuff that keeps flooding my screen.

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


May 30, 2007 09:33 am

Hey Bleak, Thanks for the interest!

At present I doubt it. Per the tone of this thread the media is running from this whole think like a scared rabbit. Although I will bring the concept up to the organizers. I have no idea if they have any contacts that can or would do it at a 'grass roots' level.

I will definately let you know if it becomes so.

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


May 30, 2007 11:04 am

yeah, i think it's Real Player that's dooin' all them doubble-underlined links....my work computer is dooin' it too.

Answer:On a good day, lipstick.
Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004


May 30, 2007 11:27 am

I worked in PR for a while. Although this may seem a little flippant, the media are not going to get involved unless there's something in it for them. Is it news? Is it groundbreaking? Will it sell newpapers/TV etc.
Can you get some kind of local celebrity involved? I know the bands should stand for themselves in this regard, but more people are likely to read about the event - let alone attend - unless it holds their interest!
Perhaps the organizers are bad at PR.
Just thinking aloud.

Sounds like a great event.

Not touching the war issue....

not the brightest spark...
Member
Since: Sep 13, 2005


May 30, 2007 11:50 am

''Those people I don't think know what to do with freedom based on what I see'' DB

In light of the above quote I would encourage all of us to exercise caution when making sweeping statements about other cultures that are based mostly upon information we receive through national and international media. These sources are generally quite biased. I know that in the U.K nearly 70% of our media is right wing and this certainly colours the national consciousness whilst at the same time being a part of it. It is a somewhat vicious circle.

Freedom is a concept that we can only really exercise in a climate of political and social acceptance. To achieve this state of relative harmony every working democracy in the world has endured a civil war. I think it's important to remember that there are two distinct groupings in Iraq today just as there were in America in 1864 and England in 1642. Did our nations really know what to do with THEIR freedom all those years ago?

DB, with reference to your point:

'...if you support the soldiers you hope for success, that is what support is, in hoping for success you are supporting the war. Pretty simple really'

Your logic seems unassailable but I would suggest that you have not taken into consideration that the armed men and women of Britain and America are operating as tools of the state that has bred them. I support these people as brave human beings but that does not mean I was in favour of sending them to Iraq in the first place.

Finally, those people who suggest that we should pull our troops out are not seeing the bigger picture. There is a job to be done and a civil war to contain. I greatly admire the people who are helping to bring democracy about but I strongly oppose the politicians who sent them there to purely to secure a stable political and economic base in a region of declining western power and influence.


Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


May 30, 2007 12:02 pm

Quote:
yeah, i think it's Real Player that's dooin' all them doubble-underlined links....my work computer is dooin' it too.


No, it's not, it's a new system I added and I am going to try thru the month of June...it's kind of a cool technology...they need a couple weeks to tune it to HRC's needs then I am going to play with options and see what I can make of it, I just think it's kinda cool...

Quote:
I would suggest that you have not taken into consideration that the armed men and women of Britain and America are operating as tools of the state that has bred them.


Ummmm, no, they are doing the job they signed up for.

Quote:
I support these people as brave human beings but that does not mean I was in favour of sending them to Iraq in the first place.


Perhaps, but they ARE there, regardless of your opinion, and to support them is to hope for success.

Whether people agree or not is moot...it's old news and worthless discussing, live in the now...now we are there, our troops got a horrible, evil man out of power which is awesome...it's the cleanup that sucks and is being held up by stupid, politically charged infighting between social elitists who think we are all their pawns.

Member
Since: Jan 24, 2006


May 30, 2007 12:12 pm

I'm with the "you can support the soldiers and not the war" faction.

I can genuinely say that I support the soldiers I know and I don't want them hurt or killed but that doesn't mean I support the war.

It may be their own fault but most of these soldiers did not sign up expecting to go to war, they signed up due to limited to career opportunities and ignorance of what they were signing up for.

not the brightest spark...
Member
Since: Sep 13, 2005


May 30, 2007 12:30 pm

'Ummmm, no, they are doing the job they signed up for.'

So they signed up to be tools of the State? I can accept that. However, you are ignoring the huge divide between the world of politicians and the armed forces. You have admitted yourslef that:

'Washington would STFU and let the military generals run the war'

This is the conflict of interests I am alluding to. What soldiers are told, what civilians are told and what politicians choose to tell us are three different things.




Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


May 30, 2007 12:32 pm

Quote:
but most of these soldiers did not sign up expecting to go to war


Anyone who signs up for military service and is then blindsided by actually going to war is...well...not that bright. I understand someone being bummed out about going, but that is what the military is...that is what they do...that is what you sign up for. Anyone should go in knowing that's a very, very real possibility.

Member
Since: Jan 24, 2006


May 30, 2007 12:51 pm

Truth is that most of them ain't that bright

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


May 30, 2007 12:55 pm

i definately agree with that (what db AND toni said), but speaking of good PR, the military is really good at suggar-coating the appeal of signing *your life* away....but i think that's already been discussed.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


May 30, 2007 12:57 pm

Quote:
Truth is that most of them ain't that bright


Wow...anything I want to say to that statement isn't printable.

Member
Since: Aug 13, 2005


May 30, 2007 02:16 pm

I,m with the 'get a celeb' for free or for expenses.This may in turn change the lack of intrest from the media.Then take on a positive approach about ticket sales,create hype,savings on advanced tickets,discounts or free tickets for trustable people who will get out there and enthusiasticly sell this event.All bands have friends and relatives,get them motivated by each band actively selling so many each.Print extra tickets,give them away if you have to.Dont get into the war debate just the help that is needed now.Good luck.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


May 30, 2007 02:28 pm

But war debates are always so fun, productive and changes so many minds...

Member
Since: Aug 13, 2005


May 30, 2007 02:44 pm

If the debates create publicity for the concert then yes use it,but these events are difficult unless there is 100% positive approach.

Prince CZAR-ming
Member
Since: Apr 08, 2004


May 30, 2007 03:04 pm

[quote]Truth is that most of them ain't that bright
[/quote]

that statement's like saying most blonds are dumb, and actually meaning it.

what else, people from Poland are stupid?

Bigotry doesn't have to have a color.


People that sign up for military service are putting a lot more on the line than their opinion. It's their life, and they know that (or at least - should - know that).

A lot of people fighting are not in agreement with our government's direction, but they know that to keep this country from being slammed, we need to stand as one nation, and be prepared to back that up.

Eat Spam before it eats YOU!!!
Member
Since: May 11, 2002


May 30, 2007 04:13 pm

Though there are some rather 'interesting' people I've met in the army... it is true that none of them compaired to the level of genius attained by one of my college science profs. Who once tried to enlighten us with:

"Fish are happy to be eaten by sharks because they swin and that is their purpose, ...like buffalo." WTF!?

I think the lecture was on electricity though... it was hard to tell day to day...


So, the dumbest people I've met were _not_ in the military :)


Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


May 30, 2007 04:42 pm

omg zek, now THAT is about the dumbest thing i've heard in a long time....though good for a laugh.

Answer:On a good day, lipstick.
Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004


May 30, 2007 05:50 pm

Quote:
Not touching the war issue....


That 'whooshing' sound is me getting sucked in... Just because I'm a bastard like that, and I have to play the devils advocate.

I come from a long line of military men & women, so I have nothing but good things to say about them. I do, however believe that you can support the troops without supporting the mission (Oh, come on....I'm British....Jenkin's Ear? Crimea? Mafeking?).

In no particular order (and with nothing but respect for y'alls opinions:

Quote:
Anyone who signs up for military service and is then blindsided by actually going to war is...well...not that bright. I understand someone being bummed out about going, but that is what the military is...that is what they do...that is what you sign up for. Anyone should go in knowing that's a very, very real possibility


Dead on. Can't add, or otherwise fault this one.

Quote:
. There is a job to be done and a civil war to contain.


This one appeared in a thread that cited both the American, and English civil wars...
Who exactly was 'containing' these wars?
Some bright fella once said, "Those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it." If you look at the history of Iraq/Whatever it's been called over the years - there are at least THREE examples of the despot being overthrown, a 'democracy' installed, and then another coup by a despot within a year. Why do we think it won't happen again?

Quote:
Ummmm, no, they are doing the job they signed up for.


Not really. They signed up to protect the interests of their country. It has yet to be proven that there was any threat from Iraq to the USA/Britain. They went to war looking for WMDs. They didn't find any, and the 'reason' keeps being changed ("Quick, look over there!!! Is that a distraction?"). They went based on one reason, and one reason alone. That turned out to be a bust. They should be brought home. My $0.02.

Quote:
Bigotry doesn't have to have a color.


I'd like to buy you a drink for saying that!

Quote:
..it's the cleanup that sucks and is being held up by stupid, politically charged infighting between social elitists who think we are all their pawns.


Doesn't that strike you as criminal? And yet these elitists continue unabated...

Now here's a very controversial one...
How many people were killed in the 9/11 attacks?
How many people were killed as a result of going into Iraq?
Why is this number a bit lopsided?
Answer the same question, but replace 'people' for 'Americans'. Still lopsided?

Remind me why we're there.....
Sure Saddam was a menace, but not to us.

Are we sending similar forces into Darfur? Congo?
No? Really? Why not? Nasty people there too....Genocides'n'stuff....No?...Really?
Oh, that's right.....You know.....

I thought catching OBL was "our number one priority"! ("Quick - Look over there!!! It is! It's another distraction!")
It's probably about eleventh priority right now.

As an attempt to segue Walt's original thread (you're not fooled, are you?), this whole "Support the troops" flagwaving thing is great, but it remains to be seen if the vets of this war will receive any different treatment to those who returned from south-east Asia in the seventies. Will the goverment stand behind them, and offer support?
Oh, right.... It won't be this government.

Rant ended 2:50 PM



Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


May 30, 2007 06:42 pm

Yes, TallChap it does strike me as criminal...most everything gov't does strikes me as criminal any more. Thomas Jefferson said that it's gov't job to keep people from hurting each other, outside of that they should do very little...I agree with that, yet both sides of the aisle keep passing laws to protect people, make people play fair, and all this other crap that only winds up hurting...then, pile on the individual agendas and things get even worse...

The problem is so big now it's tough to know where to even start fixing it, other than firing everybody and abolishing both political parties.

Ne'er ate 'er
Member
Since: Apr 05, 2006


May 30, 2007 07:01 pm

Herb's Meditation:

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know that my vote won't make a damn bit of difference..

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


May 30, 2007 07:03 pm

That's what people said about voting for Jesse Ventura...and he became our governor, did a pretty decent job, then left office and went insane...but that's beside the point...

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


May 30, 2007 09:55 pm

i didn't know he went crazy, i did notice nobody was talkin' about him...(i seem to remember ppl tryin' to push him to presidency at one point)...

to me the war on terrorism is all too similar to Regans war on drugs...why must we fight verbs? all we end up dooin' is chasing our tail and spending too much on something that will NEVER go away in at least the next 3 generations, more than likely will never go away...humans are too homicidal and waring with ourselves is what our species does best.....

did drugs beat america? nope we simply moved on...will terrorism prevail over america and it's allies? nope, but it won't go away.

i was thinkin' earlier, why don't we (as in all countries that are "with us" give 'em the Cuba treatment, and cut them off economically (and i don't mean to go the 'oil' way, BUT that was our stratagy against Castro.

i donno, i just view this whole issue as a big waste of time, money, and lives, for everyone involved. simply saying "they're crazy" back and fourth is spinnin' tires in the mud.

i have no answers, but i'll let ya know if i hear a good one.

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


May 30, 2007 10:47 pm

Well in a great sense, I am sorry I started the thread. I truly wasn't fishing for a debate on the war, simply pulse on fundraising and how people viewed helping veterans. I did get the answers and for that I am grateful. I have forwarded all of your recomendations etc. to the folks organizing the event to include the collective experinece with the media.

So with that you will excuse me. I'm gonna boogie off to the nearest media web and stare up Britney Spanials crotch with the rest of the morons.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


May 30, 2007 11:05 pm

He didn't literally go nuts, just kinda, well...got very un-political like (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) during the race nobody took him seriously, at least not the competition, everybody in the political arena said it was a wasted vote, etc...he ended up winning, brought a bit of white-trash to the capital, which was nice, just a nromal guy, did some boneheaded things and some good things, at least as good as any other governor. But was disillusioned by the system and disappeared...sorta.

Duke of Stewed Prunes
Member
Since: Jun 01, 2007


Jun 02, 2007 10:08 am

I think the issue was pretty well hit upon somewhere half-way up this thread. In order to gain media attention for a military non-prof benefit concert, you're probably going to need some sort of sensationalist angle (domestic animals in uniform for the vets of foreign wars or something like that). Barring that, or getting a huge number of folks on the "street" to distribute fliers and the like, you may find that media support is lacking as their chief job is sales - much as someone either here or writing for Electronic Musician pointed out that we, as musicians, are essentially beer salesmen (and women).

As to the war itself, my hat's off to anybody who is over there in the line of fire "taking one for the team" as it were. Where I have a problem is when people who are not exactly bursting at the seams to get over to Iraq with assault rifle in hand start lecturing me about how important this thing is and how we should just shut up and get behind the effort. I HAVE heard vets of this conflict speak well of our role there (mainly one woman who was guarding an oil field near the borders of the country, NOBODY anywhere near Baghdad), but most accounts are either neutral or openly negative of the whole thing. Another thing to be said for someone who can stand there, massively powerful rifle in hand, and accept what must be some of the most awful missteps in logic as their orders for the day (granted, they're not receiving their orders from politicians, so that may have something to do with the restraint - commanders on the ground may command respect) without shooting the guys wearing the extra bars...

I dunno - it's a nice notion to think of a pure and benevolent "peace-keeping" force offering a reprieve from oppressive regimes (of which there are many in the world) and newfound freedom for citizens of more downtrodden parts of the world. Unfortunately, barring a massive improvement in the technology of war (peace?), a surge in raw manpower, and a serious upgrade in leadership, that isn't going to be coming from us and it may well prove to have been our best option to mellow out the war machine and get our economy back on track... You know, with jobs being more readily available to people who actually...live here?

Just some spare change... (I think there was a new quarter in there!)

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 02, 2007 10:27 am

Get Tom Cruise and his gang o nutbags to help sponsor it, I heard they have a special rehab system :-)

Duke of Stewed Prunes
Member
Since: Jun 01, 2007


Jun 02, 2007 11:05 am

I wouldn't involve Tom Cruise or his "gang 'o nutbags" if I was fighting for my life against a horde of zombies. O_O;;

Ne'er ate 'er
Member
Since: Apr 05, 2006


Jun 02, 2007 11:24 am

Quote:
my hat's off to anybody who is over there in the line of fire "taking one for the team"


That's laughable. G.W. Bush isn't even one person, let alone a team.

Duke of Stewed Prunes
Member
Since: Jun 01, 2007


Jun 02, 2007 11:32 am

Over there in the line of fire humoring the village idiot?

It is also entirely possible that GW is an android being controlled entirely by malicious squirrels. That would explain the questionable grasp of the English language...

Wait... If he's not one person, where's the rest of him?

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 02, 2007 11:34 am

There are days, Herb, I have a lot of respect for you...then there are days that every single drop of respect gets sucked out by one insensitive, arrogant statement.

Ne'er ate 'er
Member
Since: Apr 05, 2006


Jun 02, 2007 12:21 pm

I can live with that.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 02, 2007 02:07 pm

So can I.

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


Jun 02, 2007 09:50 pm

Well Runicen, it's funny, at least to me. You are right of course, but I had a dream the the gig went over gang-busters and the media showed up to cover the thing and I and a bunch of bikers showed them off the premisis. Simply told them they had their chance to "buy" their "ticket". And no Tall Chap I can't say that I was fooled, but I am an optimist and I had hopes that 'we the public' had learned something. Aaaaaaa... Next contestant please! Oh and I love your references to "quick look over here". If that isn't the truth. Every time I think of Osama Bin Laden and George Bush, I think of Mohamad Ale and Howard Cosell. I made you, no I made you. Their probably sipping donkey piss together right now.

Member
Since: May 10, 2007


Jun 02, 2007 10:52 pm

Here is my take and 2 cents on all of this...

I support the troops and therefore support what they are doing. Its keeping those Islamic wackjobs over there and not coming over here to blow up my nieces in a mall or whatever.

I know for a fact that if we go back to being reactive instead of proactive then we will most certainly experience more blood being spilled on home soil and a lot of it... lets hope none of your family or friends get blown up!

I dont want to comment on the mentality of the Iraqi people and their inability to overcome generation after generation of torture and fear to feel all ready in a heartbeat to become self-determining. I have never been through decades of torturous suppression to know how long it would take me to become bold. Its really funny to me cause in this country if we even just make fun of someone the PC idiots run around shouting how long its going to take that person to overcome the emotional pain and humiliation for being the butt-end of a joke. But hey Iraqi's get over it and get to controlling your country already huh? :))

Lastly,

If people think that there will ever be a time again when we wont have to or wont need to be snuffing out the Islamic agenda via bullets and bombs then you have really burned way to many brain cells and you have NO CLUE as to who and what this enemy is. Go back to your bong. Those of us who have common sense will take care of ya. Just try and keep the complaining to a minimum because if we really wanted to hear from A-Holes we would just fart.

We need to make sure that anyone serving in our military has everything that they need when they get back and while they are serving their families should want for nothing! PERIOD!

Folks we are in and will be in a perpetual struggle with this enemy for a long time so lets get over our microwave mentality and moronic tendencies to forget things and keep in support of those who are "choosing" to lay it on the line to face down these evil bastards.

I think I spent about 3 or 4 cents...

Rant over.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jun 03, 2007 12:40 am

Um, well stated indeed!

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Jun 04, 2007 02:28 am

Quote:
...you have NO CLUE as to who and what this enemy is. Go back to your bong.


i trust my bong over yer RXs...

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jun 04, 2007 09:53 pm

WYD, I don't know what to say.

Member
Since: May 10, 2007


Jun 04, 2007 11:21 pm

:)) hahaha

You mean momma's little helpers? ;)

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jun 04, 2007 11:27 pm

You guys are scaring me now!!!

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Jun 05, 2007 01:42 pm

lol

it's pretty hard to freak noize out! that's gotta mean somethin'

Ne'er ate 'er
Member
Since: Apr 05, 2006


Jun 05, 2007 02:46 pm

Back in the 60s, "Mother's little helpers" usually referred to Valium.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 05, 2007 02:52 pm

In my house mother's little helper is Jack 'n Coke.

Member
Since: May 02, 2007


Jun 05, 2007 03:16 pm

"I support the troops and therefore support what they are doing. Its keeping those Islamic wackjobs over there and not coming over here to blow up my nieces in a mall or whatever."

oh is that what they're doing in Iraq? I thought it had something to do with WMD's or something.

Answer:On a good day, lipstick.
Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004


Jun 05, 2007 04:23 pm

Right. The perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks were mostly from Saudi Arabia I believe.

But we wouldn't want to upset them. The CIA (can you name the former CIA director who is related to "W"?...) funded, and recruited OBL and friends to "defend" Afghanistan against the "Communist" threat of the USSR. The Saudi's leading families were involved in the funding and setting up of the Taliban. The Saudi's leading families are all best buddies with the Bush family. Awwww...What a lovely group of people...

All we had on Iraq was "He tried to kill my dad!"
As mentioned, the whole WMD thing was a crock.

"We're fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here..."
I'd love to hear the statistics from our "intelligence" (we know how infallible they are) on the Iraqi regime's capabilities for a strike on the US. He couldn't even get a Scud to fly straight! Despite the links the Bush administration have tried to feed us, they had nothing to do with 9/11.

3,500 (and counting) Americans are dead as a direct result of the invasion of Iraq.

Mission accomplished?

The troops over there are doing a fantastic job. They need our support.
They don't need to be there.

Member
Since: May 10, 2007


Jun 05, 2007 07:59 pm

Now now, BOTH SIDES of the aisle looked at the same intelligence and made the decision to go to war. Even though now the dems are re-writing their own history and versions of "what they thought they were voting for". Man are people that gullable and stupid. I still believe the WMD's were there and were relocated. Thats my personal opinion.

Look man I am first in line to say the handling of the war has been seriously screwed up and the planners should have known that a civil war would need to be handled. BUT... as horrible as even one military casualty is, I would hate to see what kind of civilian casualties could be inflicted here on home soil as a result of a passive policy. Oh yeah we had 8 years of a passive policy and over 3,000 of our countrymen and women and children and one of my best friends died!!!!

Yeah lets go back to that.

If they dont need to be there then please enlighten me with where you do think they need to be?

You would have to be a little dull to not realize we needed a central staging point to take these nut bags on. Better there in iraq than here.

Saudi Arabia has been very supportive of our efforts and has opened more doors to nail these bastards than they have closed.

There has been plenty of documented associations with al quayda and Sadam...thats so been proven over and over. Its time to get off of that horse.

Bottom line here is you either believe that the 911 attack was a single event and probably wont happen again so lets quit all this un-needed fighting stuff,,,or you sit on the side of realizing what the real islamic agenda is and if you have any understanding of what their doctrine is all about you will come to the conclusion that this fight is not a traditional one and will it will be like stamping out cock roaches for a very long time until enough of them have been wacked to the point of being a non threat. Its more than one group and its a threat that can become world encompassing if "left alone".

There are times when peace "keeping" has to give way to peace "making". Unfortunately, sometimes making peace comes on the other side of war.

I think I read a while back that the murder rate per capita in Washington DC was actually worse than being in Iraq.... Should we pull out of Washington too? :))

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Jun 05, 2007 08:33 pm

Quote:
until enough of them have been wacked to the point of being a non threat


never gonna happen man.....there will always be crazy (and sometimes organized) people in the world, and "stepping on 'em" makes for a good hobbie at best. child mollestors do more damage than these silly terrorists and their AK's

go after cancer if you care about everyone so much....there's a more noble cause.

Member
Since: May 10, 2007


Jun 05, 2007 11:05 pm

OK

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jun 05, 2007 11:18 pm

WYD, he will you know. You need to go check out the band site to see what Rob is all about. Aside from that, his music, their music is right up your alley. Total power, killer guitar's and just a great message via music. Do go check it out, and look around. YOu might want to take note of the Fall of Echoes music as well that Rob has created with one killer vocalist I might add. As well, they donate a good deal of the sales to charity. So ya, he might just do it.

Anyway, here is the site and you can find the FOE link in their links section a a couple of other places. I highly recommend having a listen as I think you might just like it.

www.visualcliff.net

Duke of Stewed Prunes
Member
Since: Jun 01, 2007


Jun 06, 2007 12:23 pm

For better or worse, we've landed ourselves in an era in which nobody can keep their hands clean. I mean, many of them are certifiable, but if you get hold of any of the public addresses even by folks like Osama, their demands are basically to the effect of "Stay the hell out of our business (and let us nuke Israel)."

So at least 50% of what they're talking about can be delivered, simply by removing our military from their countries and letting them blow each other up to their hearts' content.

Unfortunately, I don't know a lot of folks who'd be down with letting this absurd sectarian civil war crap go on too long - but I also can't think of a civil war that was forced into an early stop by the "parent figure" of another country stepping in and demanding that the two sides play nice. Ours was sped along by a few helpful outside players, but it wasn't until the Confederacy was forced to march through the schoolyard with a shiner and pants about ankles that the conflict actually ended. Granted, I don't think the Confederates were possessed of the same mean-streak as your offending Sunni or Shia Moslem...but that's another story.

The point here is: if we want to try to bring any measure of peace to the area, we're taking upon ourselves their conflicts. So events like 9/11, though incredibly ugly, are to be expected. To assume that we can throw some scuds and a couple thousand troops at a problem and be unmolested both on foreign soil (impossible) and at home (at this point, thankfully just slightly possible) is a pipe-dream.

Here's hoping for an outcome that sees the troops home to their families for a well-deserved break and a pension that'd make anybody jealous, but until our leaders (who are essentially the same party split by an aisle anymore...) start to acknowledge this setup and give it to the American people straight, I think that our denial will be what prolongs this ugliness.

www.TheLondonProject.ca
Member
Since: Feb 07, 2005


Jun 06, 2007 12:40 pm

Well since I'm Canadian I won't pretend to know anything about the politics in the US. However, seems to me that bringing the troops home to defend the borders and airports would be more effective if the intent is to defend against terrorism. I don't know how many soldiers are there right now but I would suspect it would be enough to properly defend the points of entry.

It just seems to me that sending troops to Iraq is giving them a steady stream of targets to shoot at.


Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 06, 2007 01:18 pm

I agree with BH 110%. While I am glad Saddam got outsted, and I respect what the military claims they are trying to do over there, I no longer trust the decisions being made, or the propoganda being spread 100%...hell, even 50%. That is not any more of a knock on the current administration as much as against the Gov't as a whole. If the Gov't was a business, they'd have went out of business a long time ago due to bad decisions, wasteful spending and such other garbage policies.

I would sooner see our troops pulled back to our coastline, our airports, and our borders with Canada and Mexico. What the hell a wall is doing on the Mexican border I am not sure, or the 5% of it that has actually been built...people will get around it, we need people there.

And besides that, all the 9/11 hijackers came in thru Canadian borders.

It's high time we stop imposing our will on other countries, and just protect our own back yard...if they want help, let 'em ask for it, no need to thrust it upon them.

bace135 in the house tonight!
Member
Since: Jan 28, 2003


Jun 06, 2007 03:15 pm

and I quote...

"if we really wanted to hear from A-Holes we would just fart."

Didn't agree with a single thing dude said, but that was one of the funniest things I've read in a while!

Answer:On a good day, lipstick.
Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004


Jun 06, 2007 06:15 pm

Quote:
If the Gov't was a business,


Argh! Not Ross Perot again......

I kid. I kid.

Quote:
You would have to be a little dull to not realize we needed a central staging point to take these nut bags on. Better there in iraq than here.


So how many of these Muslim militant extremist guerillas were roaming the streets of Baghdad before the fall of Saddam's regime? Not so many...
Saddam wouldn't stand for it.
They are all there now because we are. Great opportunity for them.

Also, I thought that's why we invaded Afghanistan....to have a central stagin.....oh, never mind.....

Scenario #1:
American/UK/Canadian/Etc. soldier, with little or no combat experience, in unfamiliar surroundings and terrain fights a battle with veteran guerilla fighters (they've been 'at war' for decades - remember Russia went into Afghanistan first) on their turf.

Scenario #2:
Islamic fundamentalist nut-job tries to attack/sneak into a fortified and technologically advanced strong point in the US/UK/Canada/Etc. in a post 9/11 world.

Which one gets the most of our boys & girls killed?

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Jun 06, 2007 06:44 pm

*listenin' to "Sovereign Eyes" right now*

first off, lemme say although i might have come across spitefull, by no means does anyone's politics or religon affect my 'virtual friendship' with anyone here...i just like the topic, so yeah, i'm not gonna dislike any of y'all because of what's said in these type of threads...i am by no means an expert on the subject. but i am a bit opinionated! ha

as for Rob's site lemme just say WOW...you're one buzy mofo! i'm diggin' the instrumental stuff for sure, very progressive...bands like Rush and Tool are commin' to mind. good stuff indeed man!

Member
Since: May 10, 2007


Jun 06, 2007 08:27 pm

I agree 10000000% with Beerhunter & DB as well. The only thing I would caution is to realize that the islamic agenda needs to be tamed and supressed. Do you honestly think that without American muscle and more importantly "balls", countries like France or Spain or just about anyone else would truly stand up to these nuts and not let them become a sizeable threat most likely with nuclear abilities. We would end up having a real blood bath of casualties as a result of not dealing with them where they are. Make no mistake about they want the US and Israel off the map. We can never forget that.

It is also paramount to never turn our backs on Israel for about a million reasons.

TallChap...these cowards dont come after armies they blow up innocent women and children. These pricks need to be tracked and hunted down. You dont understand the enemy if your advocating this war can be fought via WWII type war tactics and expectations.

Folks I am forever in debt to those that have paid the ultimate sacrifice but when the WWII Battle of the Bulge realized 19,000 dead US service men in just ONE BATTLE.... I think the fact that we only have at this point 3,500 in how many YEARS fighting this war is a real testament to how it is being handled and more importantly how awesome our fighting forces are. Not that I am making lite of those 3500 that have paid the ultimate sacrifice but lets keep things in perspective. Our Grandparents understood the meaning of the word RESOLVE!

WYD,,,I dont have one bit of anger or anything towards you brother! You are entitled to disagree, agree or whatever all you want! I take nothing personal from anyone and I hope nobody takes anything personal from my rantings. Blogs and emails always come across more harshly than they are intended (most of the time anyway) and I enjoy the debating. I enjoy the give and take of passions!

Also, thanks for the kudos on the music! Its most appreciated!

Peace,
Rob

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 06, 2007 08:45 pm

Quote:
Do you honestly think that without American muscle and more importantly "balls", countries like France or Spain or just about anyone else would truly stand up to these nuts and not let them become a sizeable threat most likely with nuclear abilities.


...and the doctor said "I like working on French people best, cuz there is no guts, balls or heart to work around"...

LOL

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Jun 06, 2007 09:10 pm

lol

i think we (as in everyone in the world who is not a terrorist) are too resilient for the terrorists to win...they can't kill us all.

Quote:
Make no mistake about they want the US and Israel off the map


that's funny because we want them off the map aswell....whos right/wrong? the way i see it, they are the most conservitive of conservitives (politically speaking) and they truely believe we are the 'bad' ones that are making the world ugly (and to some degree, i kind of agree). they hate our culture, we hate their tactics...so we're "fighting" two deferent issues.

Quote:
the islamic agenda needs to be tamed and supressed


how would you feel if i changed "islamic" to "christian" and said that?

we need a new Martin Luther King....

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 06, 2007 09:46 pm

islamic and christian are not even close to interchangable.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jun 06, 2007 09:55 pm

I may not have much to add that is relative to this thread. But I am reading it and keeping up on it.

dB, you indeed inject some humor when needed.

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


Jun 06, 2007 10:39 pm

I'm with you Noise. We definately have a vested interest in this mess at this juncture. Question is, Now what the hell do we do with it? It's totaly bizzare. We have assumed this 'command' position in one spot militarily while we render ourselves completely reactionary to the U.A.E. Who's thinkin what?

Member
Since: May 10, 2007


Jun 06, 2007 11:12 pm

WYD...do you honestly believe we as Americans are "bad"? Are you part of the "hate America first crowd"? We are certainly imperfect but to marginalize how we respond to viable threats and to even consider offering the possibility that "they" may be right and justified despite all of their cowardly murderous tactics is a position that I cant even begin to respond to. All I can say man is WOW and I'm sorry you feel that way and we can just agree to disagree.

Thats what really scares me though...Folks in this country actually having the sentiment that these people and what they have done and what they will do is worthy of justification and or understanding.

WOW!!!!!!!!!! I really need to meet their PR and marketing team cause they are doing a fantastic job!

Sorry man but I'm not up for passing out hugs and heart felt understanding to folks that are hell bent on an agenda of submission or death.

To suggest the viable interchanging of islam and Christianity only proves to me why such sentiments of islamic justification are made. One of the main tactics of "The Politics of Opposition" are to marginalize that which is truth for moral relativism. But thats foder for another thread!

You are right though on one comment, we could use many more bible believing men of God (God of the Bible that is) like MLK (who was a republican you know)in this world. But then again it would only provide another target for the islamic doctrine of conversion or die.



Prince CZAR-ming
Member
Since: Apr 08, 2004


Jun 06, 2007 11:38 pm

I believe there's a matter of perspective here.

The gov't does things to other countries / regions / political groups, etc.

They don't tell the US population what they're doing, but the people on the receiving end certainly know that something's not right.

The gov't tells the recipients that this is for their own good, or at least for the greater good.

The recipients say "we're getting shafted, by the crappy americans, they suck".

Us here at home are thinking "why won't they just behave", and don't know why these foreigners don't like america, I mean what's not to like, right?

So now we've got polarized populations, us here, and them there. They start pushing back, and we start pushing back, etc. Pretty soon things happen like what we've been seeing.

Now I'm not advocating deception, violence, or naughty actions on either side. I think we should be less involved in foreign affairs, but I also don't think the radical factions at play here are going to slink off into the hills if we leave them alone.

From what I've read (admittedly light) they (radical factions) consider all non-islamist people to be expendable, and consider it their duty to remove us 'non-worthys' from the planet.

So it becomes a sticky situation. Do we leave them alone, and wait for them to gain momentum and attack us more, or do we pre-emptively strike, and cut down their killing abilities before they can expand and develop.

Personally, I'm more for the latter, but I wish for the former.

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Jun 07, 2007 12:31 am

to answer your question, you are correct...i am definately not the guy with the red, white, and blue giant foam finger sayin' "we're number one"....

as a fundamental concept, i truely believe capitolism (or economic competition, as practiced here) is, for lack of a better word, bad. it thrives on greed. we have dumbed ourselves down (i'm talkin' about general public) to a laughable if not embarrassing degree....we sell ouselves anything to chase that dollar (or "american dream")...so we're stuck with Easy Cheese, Gangsta rap, American Idol, movies like Jackass (which i do like haha) and a bunch of other crap that we don't need. it really is a rat race....my dad is an uber-materialist (which is probably the reason i'm the way i am)...and is quite dissapointed we're not the Rockefeller's by now...and he's in debt to the tune of $450,000.....and he loves his toys, and i'll probably end up sellin' everything to pay it off later in my life....but i digress

i believe in the power of teamwork, and think on the whole, we can achieve more this way...now that's a very idealist way to think, but i know the good in people. it's just gettin' everyone onboard is the hard (if not, impossible) part.

i could go on and on on some kinda anti-money tangent and how it corrupts EVERYTHING, but i'll spare you the examples, i'm sure you're smart enough to get where i'm going with that.


2. we get pissed off when outsiders tell us how to do stuff, yet we impose our way (i'm talkin' "western culture" here, not just america) on EVERY corner of the planet......we should just chant "do it our way, do it our way" but that would be seen as silly, so we get 'em hooked on our money (which isn't worth as much as it used to be btw)...and slowly change them (look at japan, india, and china)


3. we're a bunch of trigger happy, my way or the highway rednecks (as a whole) which irks me to no end. but god forbid you speak out about it and it's "if you don't like it, leave" to me thats dumb, and irrational.

i don't hate america, i'm just a bit red in the face with embarrassment sometimes. sure there's plenty of countries out there where the quality of life sucks completely, but i'm gettin' sick of this blind patriotism that alot of highschool age kids or younger are beein' filled up with....america was a very special place (i'm thinkin' durring the indrustrial age), now we're just the fat spoiled kid (and we ARE a young nation still) on the block...but you are what you eat, and we like t.v. dinners, and now it's become unhealthy *i don't even know what i'm sayin' there, but i'll leave it*


things are nice here, but it's the next 50 years that scares me, cuz i do think our '#1 superpower' status will not last much longer...and that scares soooo many people.

me, i've got my eyes on New Zeland, if/when i can stash the cash to get there, i'll leave.

Eat Spam before it eats YOU!!!
Member
Since: May 11, 2002


Jun 07, 2007 03:17 am

### 3am rambling ###

1. I would agree that our economic values are misguided... and I think we're in for a real shakeup in the next couple years... but I think it's more along the lines of the general population doesn't understand value rather than society being capitalistic or socialistic.

Most of use realize that places like Wal-Mart sell junk... and people buy it... this prevents people from building equity. If you work a wage job, rent, and shop at walmart and keep all of your money in a savings account you are a slave... because you work and gain no economic value. ...rent is an expense, walmart products are an expense, and cash has no intrinsic value at all...

Whats supposed to happen is that you work and get money, and then get something of value for that money... expenses happen... but if everything is classifiable as an expense you have some problems to look forward to.

This is one of the reasons I came up with the phrase "Buy nice or buy twice." In general it's impossible to go from poverty to wealth in one lifetime, but if society made an effort to create and buy items of value they can become heirlooms... and heirlooms are basically a term that we should be more familiar with... "Force Multiplier"... they become items your children do not have to work for and can therefore dedicate themselves to other tasks. This is why open Source software works so well... no need to constantly reinvent the wheel...

2. Of course people should be like us. If we didn't want people to be like us then we wouldn't want to be like us either... and we'd be something else. :)

3. As more people get to the internet and actually use it I think americans will be more aware... we just have really high standards on certain things... and usually we don't see those things elsewhere so we think of the place as being barbaric... like having to pay for public restrooms... it's stupid... but most of the world is that way... then we see countries that charge 50 cents for a portajon say how dumb and backwards we are...

---

super power wise... if china ever bothered to build a navy they would probably instantly be the #1 superpower... however I think they are increadably unstable internally and we've been IMHO doing a lot to screw them over to make sure they stay at best #2... Personally I think our missile shield in europe is more vs. china than anything else...russia is just inbetween.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 07, 2007 06:41 am

Capitalism has also powered some of the greatest innovations and growth of a society because the vast rewards are there to motivate it. Communism didn't do it or any shared wealth type society because the ultimate human motivator wasn't there.

Obviously it's not a perfect system, anything that is put there, can be abused, and the politicians are the worst abusers of the capitalist system. To me, making Enron look pretty average.

Money is a motivator for people that want it, and everybody needs it.

WYD, as I was telling Noize on the phone last night, you remind so incredibly much of myself 15-20 years ago it's almost scary. I stood for, said and did many of the exact things you are standing for, saying and doing right now. I am not saying you are wrong and I am right, but the way I look at things has definately changed over the years.

I won't say I have "blind patriotism" and it's unfair to say anyone does just because they like the system in place, given it's imperfections and all...we are hardly in an embarrassing place or we wouldn't have millions of people from all over the world bending over backwards to try and get here.

What is embarrassing is where we are headed if the radical left (note I said "radical left" not left in general) has their way and we keep allowing people to sue food places when they dump coffee on themselves, punishing banks for shooting the people robbing them, giving more corporate welfare and personal welfare.

For capitalism to work, which it does, everybody needs to pull together and do their part, not sit back and suck off the teet of the system.

Perhaps the most ironic part is that the country you bash is the very country that allows you to say it...go to Egypt, Iran, Iraq or many other countries and talk like that about their gov't or leaders and see how you are treated...

Member
Since: May 10, 2007


Jun 07, 2007 07:44 am

Amen db!

There has been no other "system" in the history of the world that has realized as much success at celebrating the individual and allowing that individual to become whatever that individual wants to become if that individual puts in the work, discipline etc..

All other systems communism socialism, marxism etc.. are totally built around the idea that those who dont want to be individually responsible for themselves can with little effort survive off of the communal or collective efforts of the those that do bust their ***.

Those systems to me are nothing short of slavery and create taxes out the yin yang to pay (govt programs) for the dead beats. We see that in this country.

Speaking of Martin Luther King, he is turning over in his grave at the sight of what his race has largely become. He marched for INdependence not DEpendence.

WYD...money doesnt corrupt everything, corrupt people corrupt everything. Dont blame the system.

I wouldnt agree that we are a bunch of redneck trigger happy people .. (have you been watching CNN lately :)) If the president was from Vermont and didnt talk with a twang I wonder what the 30 second soundbite would read like... :)) How many more first attacks on us would you need before saying alright enough, time to pull out the bat and get busy. You are aware that there have been countless attacks on US embassys, the USS Cole, the first subway World Trade Center bombing, 911, how many more do you need? We certainly dont want you walking around thinking we are trigger happy :)) I think we as Americans have absorbed plenty of FIRST blows prior to the pulling of the triggers.

I too had a time in my life (early 20's) where I thought that if people could just learn to co-exist in a system of cooperation (bartering their individual talents and strengths with each other) rather than engaging in the exchange of money, wouldnt it be such a beautiful world.




Prince CZAR-ming
Member
Since: Apr 08, 2004


Jun 07, 2007 07:49 am

Quote:
i believe in the power of teamwork, and think on the whole, we can achieve more this way...now that's a very idealist way to think, but i know the good in people. it's just gettin' everyone onboard is the hard (if not, impossible) part.


I think everyone has the socialist dream at some point or another. I've had mine, and it sounds like dB's had his. I see that it can never work. And if it can't work, then I'd rather shoot for something that gives people a chance to succeed, if they want to.

Even in a capitalist society, people abuse the system. In a socialist society, people get even worse.

It becomes 'work if you want to, we don't care'. It's already somewhat present here.


Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 07, 2007 07:55 am

Yeah, it would be a beautiful world...too bad, because of previously mentioned slackers, it will never be possible. Corrupt people corrupt everything as much as leeches will leech off everything...

I am pretty confident even in communes there are always those people that everybody else wishes would get off their asses and help.

What I find most ironic is that the leeches spend so much time figuring out angles to take advantage of the system, they could actually get a full time job and probably put in less time per week and actually contribute to society.

Prince CZAR-ming
Member
Since: Apr 08, 2004


Jun 07, 2007 08:02 am

Ha!, well put =)

Makes me thing of the survivor communes, where someone is laying around, sleeping, whatever, when others are doing stuff, keeping up camp.

Actually, it's a pretty good model of how things work. Struggles, realizations, etc.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 07, 2007 08:09 am

hahaha, yeah, while typing my last response I was thinking of the show Survivor...perfect example that many can relate to.

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


Jun 07, 2007 08:44 am

I'm no friggin peacekeeper, but I don't see a hell of a lot of arugement here at the root level. No game works unless everybody plays by the rules, and it's a given of human nature that everybody will not, so a perfect system is inherently impossible. Organizational success is a deritive of the collective contributions of the it's members. It's like watching the life cycle of a private company: 1st genereation builds it, 2nd generation runs it, 3rd generation rides and sells it. To me I see a lot of 3rd generation thinking in the U.S. Too many people at all levels of the food chain riding and selling it off. I'm quite convinced that our government has become a big money scam. By the time a candidate get's in your face he or she is bought by big money interests and is a puppet brought to you to ensure government support for specific interests not pertaining to the proliferation of a peoples of a country beyond retaining headcount to ensure marketplace. If that interest happens to be or is contigent upon the UAE than so be it, just as an example.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 07, 2007 08:55 am

Actually, I think a lot of politicians go into the job with good, honest intentions...then get a taste of power and royal treatment and all their ideals get shot to hell.

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


Jun 07, 2007 09:32 am

I guess it's possible, probably very early on in the process. Were I to pick a puppet it would be an idealist that was dumber than a rock... Hmmmmmm....Reminds me of someone.... The consessions would have to come slowly, and appear to support the ideal or at least not directly conflict with it. Wow, a movie just poped into my head. Bridge over the river Kwai. But that was in the era of the movie with the 'happy' ending. The idealist came to his senses at the last moment, rather than taking the money and running. I'm terrible, how theatric.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 07, 2007 09:44 am

Well, look at how many people run on the "citizen representative" platform..."I will serve only two terms at most", "I am not a career politician, I am a citizen" and that kind of crap...then, they get into office, and baddabing, baddaboom, 30 years go by and they are still there.

Capital hill is full of career office holders, people ***** and moan that nothing changes, but then keep voting these same knuckleheads into office...how is anything going to change if the people running the show don't...

bace135 in the house tonight!
Member
Since: Jan 28, 2003


Jun 07, 2007 02:42 pm

WOW, I want to respond to some of the things in this thread, but every time I start to think about what to say, I get so upset, I worry about offending others in this thread. So, without being specific, I'm just going to say there is some serious bullshit spouted off in here, and I'm going to bow out now...

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Jun 07, 2007 07:10 pm

....aww, i was curious to what ya had to say!

it's an active choice to be offended by the words of others....so ya can come after me if ya want, and i totally won't hold it against ya! it's all opinion so there is no right or wrong. besides, it's about time we had someone go off hardcore in this thread!

i like these kinda threads because it a good excersize in articulating youself on your beliefs. i know i'm all over the map....but with each post i read/write the picture gets a bit clearer, both in what i believe, and what in what i don't.

Ne'er ate 'er
Member
Since: Apr 05, 2006


Jun 07, 2007 07:58 pm

I've decided to no longer participate in discussions like this one. My powers of tact and diplomacy about certain issues are dwindling as the years go by, and I just don't have the energy to engage in a pointless argument that won't change the way things are, let alone change anyone's mind. Everyone in here has their immovable position, and I have no interest in either back-slapping or finger-pointing anymore.

You guys go ahead.

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


Jun 07, 2007 11:55 pm

I agree WYD,

I surely didn't ask the question to spur anything like this, however, I've been around a bit and it doesn't suprise me. I benifit too both from taking the time and thought to articulate and 'listen'. There's a wealth of information in regard to perspectives, thought processes, etc in and inbetween these lines. I think I'll go over the Paris HillHoe now and see if I can decifer just why that woman won't go away.....baffeling.

Eat Spam before it eats YOU!!!
Member
Since: May 11, 2002


Jun 08, 2007 12:18 am

when is the event? BTW :)

Member
Since: May 10, 2007


Jun 08, 2007 06:51 am

:))

Yeah speaking of the event...if it helps in any small way. I could offer up a half dozen band t-shirts (3 VC & 3 FOE) with CD's to go along with them to raffle off or to just give away to anyone unlucky enough to have their ticket selected. PM me if you feel it to be of any value.

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


Jun 08, 2007 07:55 am

It is July 22nd in Pontiac Michigan, if they can get ticket sales moving.

And yes of course VCRP! I will PM you (if I can remember how) after work. We would love to accept your donation and hopefull help promote your music is some small way as well!

bace135 in the house tonight!
Member
Since: Jan 28, 2003


Jun 08, 2007 12:41 pm

...WYD, you would not be one of the ones I would be coming after... plus i'm sure it wouldn't have been too coherent, it was all emotion.

to be honest I'm pretty baffled that some people actually believe some of the stuff that was written in this thread. It seriously blows my mind. I have a hard time believing people actually think this way.

Member
Since: May 10, 2007


Jun 08, 2007 05:16 pm

Walt,

Wish I could do more my man! My profile has an email that will get to me. Use that and let me know where to send the stuff. I'm not worried about any promotion I just wanted to give you some items that might make people glad they were there and participated.

I'll look for your email.


Rob

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Jun 09, 2007 03:00 am

coolo,

yeah i kinda remember us agreeing on this kinda stuff, but when you said "it was all emotion."....that's what's good sometimes!

only instead of a rant, turn it into verse...i heard a really cool song earlier on the radio today, i'll try to come back and find it...but it was radioheadesque both in vocal style, and general feel....way cool song, but i'm not sure on the guys other stuff....lemme see if i can dig it up.

also way cool of VCRobP for bringing the thread back to walt's original post, and helping him out!!!!! even walt was gettin' sidetracked! lol man that's makin' me smile alot.

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


Jun 09, 2007 10:22 am

WYD,

Yes I surely did. My agenda is no more important than anyone elses here, and there are surely some strong feelings or agendas expressed. This site and life in the imortal words of Forrest's mother are like a box of chocolates, "ya never know what your gonna get".

I am happy to report some of the suggestions here and help from here have lead to media outside of Michigan giving a hand and publisizing the event. Also the more established bands involved have been plugging the event at other festivals and such. The jury is not out but it appears we still have a shot at making this thing work.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jun 09, 2007 04:21 pm

Walt, got an email from Russ and am working on the email to KARE 11. I will try contacting Mediacom on Monday to see if there is anything they can do from here. I'll keep brainstorming to try and find a way to help spread the word. I think the internet will help immensely in some weird way it always seems to.

If we can keep this thread on track you know Google is here and searches for such stuff will start coming up.

Another thought as well. Have you tried hitting up every venue in town to see if you can post flyers there as well. Even though it is a competing club they may be willing to help promote an event that is worthy.

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


Jun 11, 2007 09:55 am

That's a great idea Noise! I am not sure how just yet, gotta think a little, but maybe if we take the time to personalize the flyers e.g.

(Bar where posted) prowdly supports The Vetrans Benifit........ if you get my drift. Their instant "good guys".

Very much appreciate all of your efforts as I am sure many returning Vetrans will also. We are getting a good team on this one! I loves a challange!

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jun 12, 2007 08:24 pm

Walt, I think if you pick the retailer's carefully as well you may end up with many that will be glad to help out. Liquor store's, music shops of both instrument and Cd type. Any specialty shops as well. They can get their name on a big thank you banner or something if they find a way to help. Lots of good ideas popping into me ead.

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002


Jun 13, 2007 01:28 am

I'm lovin it! All of your ideas are going directly to Russ and company. Keep the beauty ead churnin! We'll skin this kat yet!

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jun 13, 2007 08:55 pm

I will.

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