May 25, 2007 10:51 pm Come on. You're so advanced at his point, my opinion is nothing. Besides, we think alike.
You know what to do. Slay the sonofabiatch.
Song structure advice needed
Posted on May 25, 2007 09:52 pm
BeerHunter
www.TheLondonProject.ca
Member Since: Feb 07, 2005
Hey all,
I'm hoping you guys can help. We are working on a new tune and I'm kind of stuck and I need to get some subjective opinions. You have to ignore the mix/edit but its just a quick and dirty of trying to put this together to build the structure. Now then, if you get a chance, listen to the song "I know she understands" that I have just uploaded in my profile. www.homerecordingconnecti...sic&id=2474
There are a couple of specific areas that I could really use some feedback on.
1) In the first verse Chelsea sings "he never calls" by herself. In the second verse we all sing that part. Which do you prefer?
2) We are calling the chorus that part with the heavy guitars coming in. Does this chorus need to have lyrics or can a chorus be instrumental? (or what would it be called if it's not a chorus?)
3) Do you think this song would be best if it ended in a heavy part or a melo part?
4) Should the second heavy part be exactly the same as the first or should it be changed up a bit?
All these questions are subjective of course but I'd really like to hear back from anyone that has time to listen. A bridge section is forthcoming.
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May 25, 2007 10:51 pm Come on. You're so advanced at his point, my opinion is nothing. Besides, we think alike.
You know what to do. Slay the sonofabiatch.
May 26, 2007 12:31 am BH, I already listened once. But alas, I am drunk and don't trust my ears at this point. Aside from taht, I can't turn it up loud. And this tune sounds like it is begging to be cranked up. I will give it a good overall listen tomorrow and give ya my thoughts using your key points to be objective as to what you are looking for.
Man that was a mouthfull, of finger's full.
May 26, 2007 11:52 am Very nice.
I'll throw out my .02$us.
Point 1:
definately the first way, with the doubling / phaser / vocoder thing going on. It was a very nice effect. With the lead singer singing along (later verses), it blends back into just the verse, which is good on it's own, but with the other vocal part, it really jumps out at you.
Point 2:
I think the chorus part / break part, is good, but not involved enough to live by itself. I'd do the first progression like you did, but then add lyrics on the rest, like have 1 prog instrument, then 2 prog lyrics.
Point 3:
I'm thinking either way would work here, you faded the end, so I can't get much of an idea on what you're thinking =/
Point 4:
I think the second break / heavy part should be different, maybe 1 prog inst, then 1 prog lyrics, then 1 prog involved lead. Then I guess you could fade out heavy, or switch back to mellow, for ending. dunno.
I'm wondering if you're going to leave it longer, as it's 3.43 now, and going back into a verse. It might get a little long, if the premise is still the same all the way through.
I love the feel of it, very floyd-like, but with a newer, fresher feel.
May 26, 2007 01:28 pm Thanks for the feedback pjk.
1) Your response has already given me an idea. thx
2) I agree that there is not quite enough complexity to hold on its own. I'm thinking that rather than a straight vocal chorus I might have sort of a spoken word argument going on the comes together as a harmony at the end before it starts the next verse.
3) The beginning of the song comes in really melo and then a bit of a shocker chorus to wake everyone up (lol). When paying attention to song length I would like to end it around 3:45 but we still have a bridge to put in. I guess I'm just trying to figure out if I should end it in a similar way that it started or go for the heavy guitar ending.
4) Everyone comments on the Floyd feel to it. Thankfully Chelsea's vocals change up the feel of the song otherwise I think it would sound too much like Floyd. We have added her vocals to our songs for this very reason. Well that and I think it helps to create our own identity.
Thanks again for the feedback.
May 26, 2007 02:36 pm Yep, her vocals do add a different twist to the whole song.
May 26, 2007 11:08 pm Great stuff,
Point 1
I think it works great as is.
Point 2
Without the vocals I suppose it could be called a bridge, But not having vocals at 1st and adding them later is a way of building the song.
Point 3
I suppose if it were done as a building block going out heavy would be the way.
Point 4
I can feel a lead line begging to come out inthe second part.
I took a listen to some of you other stuff too, YOU ROCK!
May 27, 2007 02:25 am I'll second the "great stuff" :)
I personally think the heavy part needs vox to match for the chorus and it would be a great place to have a solo as well in the song.
For the ending my preference would be to go out with the heavier part as well in some fashion, fade etc.
Always enjoy your stuff Beerhunter!
Dan
May 27, 2007 04:24 pm First off, thanks for taking the time to listen and comment.
1) We had originally tracked the vocals with all of us singing the "he never calls" parts and when we decided to try it with Chelsea by herself we started to doubt whether that was the best way to work it. Feedback suggests that her singing by herself is best so I'll make the rest of the verses the same.
2) This part has had me stumbling for a bit. I think I'll put some spoken word kinda stuff in the first chorus and a guitar solo over top of the second chorus and call it a bridge.
3) We wanted this song to have some anger to it so I think the heavy part would be best for ending the song. As mentioned the time constraints don't really allow enough time to go to the verse part to fade out. So heavy it is.
4) This is sort of addressed in #2 so that solves that.
Thanks again guys. I think this song has a lot of potential so I didn't want to be the one to **** it up. Cheers!
May 28, 2007 09:35 am heh,
How to be a good cook:
1. Start with good ingredients
2. Don't mess them up
Can't wait for the final, BH.
May 28, 2007 05:16 pm BH, indeed on the list 1 is best sounding with her alone on the vocal part. It really gives a more dramatic feel and sense of urgency to it. I like that as is.
2)Without vocals it would be a bridge, and multiple bridge parts are just fine. Again it is something that really adds drama and feel to a piece of music like this one. You could find a way to squeeze some sparse lyric in there maybe such as the "he never calls" part but with the heavyness of it it probably is not a needed addition. As it stands right now it sound very good. You could maybe find an interesting guitar hook if you really wanted, something undertoned to add again another bit of dramatic feel to it. Something that would counter the "he never calls" part with only a simple hook. Something that would shimmer and have a very subtle echo to it. Which kind of follows you idea above.
3)You could honestly just go heavy for a couple of bars and then slowly fade back from the heavy to soft part as the outro.
Honestly I am a sucker for a piece of music that has multiple moods like this. One thing you might try with her vocal part is letting it echo the stronger male part in the last verse going out as well. Let it be loud enough to be slightly more then just an echoed part.
Either way, I'm liking what this sound like it will turn out to in the end.
May 29, 2007 09:28 pm ~UPDATE: The song will be uploaded later this evening. I ran into some problems.
Hi all,
Based paritially on your feedback we have rebuilt the structure of this song. The latest version can be found in my profile. Chelsea is still down for the count when it comes to singing (lost her voice) so i won't be able to add her part back in until later this week.
We also have a chorus and bridge lyrics but we are keeping that to ourselves for now. I hope you enjoy the changes, afterall you are partly to blame if it sucks - lol
Thanks again for the inspiration everyone. It was very helpfull to break down the writer block.
PS - it is a little long but we decided what the ****, show me the rule book that addresses song length - lol
EDIT: forgot to mention that all acoustic guitar and vocals were recorded using the $5 K-micro's
May 30, 2007 08:36 pm Hi all, ok, finally got my **** together and uploaded the latest mix of "I Know She Understands."
Hopefully some of you will have time to check it out. I'm thinking it will take a couple of weeks to get it done with all the vocals (Chelsea's voice is still shot) but this should give you a good idea where we are going with it.
www.homerecordingconnecti...sic&id=2474
Anyways, we added quite a bit of acoustic that wasn't in the first version but I think it really works well with the song.
May 30, 2007 10:48 pm Again, I will listen tomorrow and give ya some feedback. Tell Chelsea to get well soon so she can rock out.
May 30, 2007 11:34 pm Cool thx. Actually Chelsea is going to give it a go tonight so I might just have her vocals done by the time you listen :-)
May 31, 2007 11:56 am I think of pink floyd when I hear it! sounds good.. now about your questions...
I would cut the first chorus part in half and leave it the same on the second time around but add huge melodic vocals. seriously!
As far as ending I can hear it going into an epic solo and fading out slowly...
Do those things and I think you got a wicked tune man...
L
May 31, 2007 06:55 pm I echo the Floyd feel, but it also took me way back to to a guitar player I use to listen to....(Steve Hillage), good work indeed!
May 31, 2007 09:50 pm I wouldn't cut anything for pete's sake!
BH, I don't know if you got the new vox on there yet but whatever you did is absolutely killer now. The classical guitar is the perfect addition to that piece. Pity I can't crank it up tonight as Tuna is already crashed but tomorrow I'm gonna rock the **** out of it when I get home. The new ending is superb as well, I loved it, a simple mellow fade to silence and it works great.
I know I'll have to listen a little more critical tomorrow but right now at this level it sound like the changes were stellar in the way the worked.
This is an epic if you ask me!
Jun 01, 2007 10:38 am Wow, thanks Noise! Ya crank it up man! Chelsea's vocals that you hear are recycled from a previous take so they are not the best, nor complete. The mix should be pretty good at high volumes although I haven't done too much on the low end.
The acoustic guitars really sparkle with those k-micro's. Very impressive mic's in certain applications. (Anybody reading this, grab some $5 mics from Karma Audio, you won't be disappointed and no, I don't work for them :-))
I really wish we didn't sound so much like Floyd though. Everyone says this and as much as I'll accept it as a compliment we really would like to have our own identity and sound.
I have another question: what genre do you think this type of music is? Would this be progressive rock? This is another area that we are struggling with. Staying within a genre. Right now our music is all over the place and it makes it hard to shop our band as a whole.
Jun 01, 2007 02:35 pm Can I be your producer on this one? Please?
Jun 01, 2007 05:58 pm Listening to the new upload. I dig the intro. I like the singer's voice. Guitar drowns out the girl singer. I really like the contrast between sections! I think it's really a cool song. Need to get the main vocals up, can't always understand the lyrics. Needs something totally different somewhere near the end to break it up. I dig the acoustic guitar part.
Jun 01, 2007 06:31 pm I would say the Floyd comparisons is there, but not as in sounding like. The flavor is there, but you surely left your own stamp on it. Thats better than a compliment in my book. Its the ability to run with the greats and still hold your own.
Jun 01, 2007 09:19 pm Quote:
but you surely left your own stamp on it Chelsea helps us a lot in that department.
Quote:
Guitar drowns out the girl singer I need her new vocal take
Quote:
Thats better than a compliment in my book. Its the ability to run with the greats and still hold your own.[/quote] Thanks a lot. Don and I have been together for about 5 years now and we're starting to find ourselves.
Cheers!
Jun 01, 2007 10:10 pm I would say progressive rock in the vein of Evanesence and Night Wish. Not sounding like either band really but along that line as far as the feeling goes. Wonderfully arranged and the female voice really adds to some of the feeling of the song.
I hear only a slight Floyd feeling there really and in my humble opinion you have taken a couple of genre's and melded them. The classical guitar in this one really sets it apart from most. And the lead swells during the quiet parts is another bit that adds so much to the feel of it.
BH, if you don't mind I would like to fly it into the studio box onto a CD to try in the car with this mix as is. I hear a couple of things that I might suggest but want to hear it in another setting. As if this one isn't good enough, but I just have a feeling the mp3 might be fooling me a little.
I as well agree that the sound you are getting from those K-Micro's is pretty killer. I am going to run them through more paces this weekend to try and get the review done earlier then I told her. I have to admit they are much fuller then I thought such a tiny diaphragm would be.
Anyway, on louder listen tonight I am finding this is one that would be on the HRC greatest hits CD for sure.
I'll be listening more tomorrow.
Jun 02, 2007 12:33 am I'll try this. I am out of touch and really not qualified to comment but (ya'll knew that was comming),
I listen to the first stanza and I am hooked especially as it builds in the second stanza as more mystry, dissonance, tension is added, I feel my emotions building up to an outburst. Now as we enter the outburst in the third stanza I am let down by the streight up segue on the percussion. I am jonesing to hear something staggered, syncopated, departing from the first two stanzas. In the third stanza, I really, really want to hear some vox. I want to hear why you just went off. I want to hear you going off vocally. In subsiquent sets of stanzas, I love the slow picking adding contrast to the underlying tension, but again some vox. What are the thoughts behind emotion?
I see a real opertunity to weave a tale of emotional events in this piece. I can feel me, the listener being captivated by the sequence of events.
Jun 02, 2007 01:42 am BeerHunter, you're doing a fine job. The tune is sounding great!
If I may offer one useful suggestion: go with your instincts, and not become a victim of overanalysis. From my first post in the thread -
You know what to do. Slay the sonofabiatch.
It still holds true.
Jun 06, 2007 05:25 pm I would follow the ABABCBA format...
A = Stanza
B = Chorus
C = Bridge
That is being followed quite a bit lately...
Jun 06, 2007 05:26 pm would follow the ABABCBA format...
A = Stanza
B = Chorus
C = Bridge
Actually if you are into spicing things up...you could place a "C" first...so it would
C + A + B + A + C + B + A
Gives the listener something different as well...
More pop songs even have a "C" right before the "B" kicks in...so bridge > chorus...
Sorry if its confusion
Jun 06, 2007 05:49 pm Or, just to be a smartass, try ABACAB just cuz it's a cool album...
Jun 06, 2007 05:54 pm Or ABBA in a continuous loop.
OMG.
Jun 06, 2007 06:05 pm Hey all, thanks for the suggestions. I have uploaded the latest version and this is what we decided to run with as far as structure. The only part that we are discussing now is whether we are going add vocals to the chorus. I like it as it is now except for Chelsea's vox are a bit pitchy in spots. She is still having a hard time singing. Imagine that, it is over 2 weeks and she is still not 100% better. I think she is lucky if she hasn't done any permanent damage.
BTW, the song is already ABABCBA, just no vocals on the chorus.
Jun 06, 2007 06:25 pm I like it. The guitar (listening on crappy 'puter speakers) has a flange thing going on which kinda bugs me (bugs ME.....just a personal thing). Other than that I really like this. The interplay between the voices is great.
Jun 06, 2007 06:27 pm Dan - you dork...I will get you back muahaha (evil grin)
Jun 06, 2007 09:46 pm BH, I like it pretty much as is. Like I stated earlier in the thread. If you really feel the need to add something in the chorus part, maybe it could be an undertoned spoken part with Chelsea's voice behind it echoing the statement spoken in melody. But it would need to be really an under lying thing to pull it off with the drama of the rest of the song.
My head is a little plugged up right now so don't take this fully until I can hear again tomorrow. During the chorus heavy guitar part the kick seems to fade ever so slightly. I do want to listen again before I confirm that though. It just seems to loose a little punch when the guitars kick it up.
Otherwise, are you sure your not being to critical on Chelsea's part. I tried really hard to hear the pitchy you were talking about. Maybe again it is my head, but I didn't really notice anything that didn't seem part of the soul of the tune. Her voice in there is very ghostly and enchanting in the context it is used. The classical solo is still the killer that makes that part of the song and the transition is pretty much perfect going back to verse.
Lastly, I want a CD full of this stuff it is killer!!!!!
Jun 07, 2007 05:48 pm Hey Noise, thanks for the comments. I know what you are talking about with the heavy part fading a bit. I'm trying to track that problem down. It doesn't show any decrease of volume on my meters. It may be a phase issue of sorts. It only seems to do this in the first chorus (at least that i've noticed).
After listening to this a few times now it may be that I am being too critical of Chelsea's parts. I dumped it into Melodyne to see how pitchy it really was and she was pretty much right on the mark. Certainly nothing worth re-tracking.
Freebie CD coming your way once we finish. We have 7 songs now for it plus 3 more that we have just started. We should be done sometime this summer if we continue to write them as fast as we have been.
Jun 08, 2007 08:50 pm I'll have to listen again, as maybe you are right. By the time I get to the second chorus I may be forcing myself to over listen and miss it. But indeed phase could be an issue. That or just a certain frequency masking it ever so slightly. As it does not seem constant.
And ya, if the vox show up good in Melodyne then it is probably all good. Like I stated above, it sounds stunning here and mixxed in very well I might add.
AS for CD, hell I'd buy one for sure.
Jun 20, 2007 11:03 am Hey Noise, I wanted to update this thread just to let you know that it wasn't a phase issue that you heard, it was actually the attack on 2 bass notes. Haha, I was barking up the wrong tree for awhile there. Anyhow, its all fixed now and actually we found about 10 areas that needed tweaking. These were all found when trying to find the elusive "phase" issue.
Now that it is done I will open the gates for the free download.
Jun 22, 2007 10:40 pm Ya, I'll keep watching for the DL to be working. I'll still be buying the thing when its done though for sure. mp3's are great and all, but nothing beats having the real CD.
By the way, I like what ya did on yer HRC home page for sure. That brick wall effect is very kool.
I'm gonna hafta spend a little time with PhotoShop this weekend as well as other crap.
Jun 23, 2007 04:28 am sorry to jack, but how exactly do you capture a still from an internet vid? oh, i bet you need video editing software huh? it's amazing on what you can answer yourself when typing a question...
Jun 25, 2007 10:22 pm Not sure on that one WYD. dB or someone might know though I am sure.
Jun 25, 2007 10:44 pm Yeah, you can capture a frame in most video editing software, maybe even MS Movie Maker, not sure tho.
Jun 26, 2007 01:08 am ok, why the hell did i bring up capturing stills from videos anyway? i'm not seein' ANYTHING related to that on this thread at all. lol
Jun 26, 2007 01:33 am well we're thinking of doing a video for this song as well so there you go WYD, back on topic :)
BTW- You can't do it in movie maker as it brings in the entire vid as one un-editable object.
I use Adobe Premier for this however. You can grab any individual frame and export it it a varity of formats.
Jun 26, 2007 01:36 am hehe 4:28am...i musta been tore up from the floor up!
Jun 26, 2007 10:28 am There's a camera icon at the bottom right of the preview screen in Movie Maker that allows you to take a JPEG snapshot directly from the movie.
Jun 26, 2007 11:25 am Sweet, I didn't know that. Thx Herb that will come in handy.
Jun 26, 2007 07:46 pm Yep, there is. And indeed I like Premier for that as well. Vegas can do it. And funny enough the player that Nero loads with its burning and authoring software is able to do it right from the player as well. I wonder why Win Media Player doesn't do it yet?
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