Instrument Placement

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Member Since: Aug 13, 2006

Howdy All,
I have been listening to music in headphones with my i-pod when I go jogging and have been very conscious of how the instruments are being placed (Left/Right/Center) within a song. I have noticed that with alot of bands with 2 guitars, i.e. Guns N Roses, you can distinctly here the seperate guitars one panned left and the other right. When I hear alot of bands with just 1 guitar I notice that it sounds alot like there has been 2 tracks recorded of the guitar and 1 panned Left and the other Right of basically the same riff. This has got me thinking about my own mixes. Our band has me on guitar and we also have a keyboard player(my wife) who for the most part kind of does some fill-ins on some songs (listen to The Calling for an example in Members Music/Rock), but she is getting more involved as we go along and has been holding some constant rhythm's in some of the songs. With these fill-ins what would be the common placement to mix these?? Left/Right/Center?? I would like to have my guitar Left and Right, but would this take away from the keyboards??
Also when panning the guitar, should it be hard right and hard left or right/center - Left/Center?? What usually gives the best sound??
Thanks

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Kaos is only a form of insanity
Member
Since: Feb 03, 2005

Mar 22, 2007 10:20 am

This will probably create a good debate!

personally i dont pan guitars hard I normally set them around the 20-30% mark, However this will depend on the song. I have been known to pan a solo hard one side to give it all the space without having to bump up the vlume too much. Overheads I pan wide to give a good stereo feel to the kit. Bass is generally centred or just off.

It really depends very much on how you want the song to feel. I have at times even put the drums one side bass the other and guitar straight.

There is no real hard and fast rule - experiment. Also close your eyes and imagine the music as a sonic sphere and place the instruments where you woud like them / or sound the best.

music is largely about perception!!

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002

Mar 22, 2007 10:24 am

I never (OK VERY RARELY) pan anything hard one side or another...

Answer:On a good day, lipstick.
Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004

Mar 22, 2007 12:47 pm

Good question. Mixing is possibly the most important part of a song.
As Kaos mentioned, it comes down to the song itself, and the feel you're looking for. Lately I've been using layered guitar and panning each guitar differently, on two mono tracks to form a stereo pair, and panning each side differently (e.g. 15% left, and 30% right).

I usually throw the bass around 9% left or right (usually left), and record the vocals on two mono tracks panned hard right and left. This gives you a full sounding vocal roughly dead center (but with nuances off to the sides).
Of course, this is just what I've been doing lately. It changes...

You mentioned that you've been listening on your iPod to the placement. Get a bunch of tracks that you know have good stereo use (I use anything by Jellyfish; Pink Floyd - TDSOTM is wonderful for trying out new stereo systems -; Sgt. Pepper era Beatles - hard panning of nearly everything; Yes's 90125; and probably most modern Joni Mitchell). Listen hard, and see what feel you like best. Then try it on a home system where you can actually pull the left and right levels down, and listen to what you have there (Sgt. Pepper will surprise the bejeebus out of you).

It's all in the ears...
It's like reading a book on how to ride a bicycle. It makes little sense until you actually try it. Reading threads on panning is similar. What works for one song may sound pants on another.

Good luck.

I am not a crook's head
Member
Since: Mar 14, 2003

Mar 22, 2007 07:24 pm

I agree with dB...hard panning can be a little overwhelming, especially when played back thru headphones where each ear doesn't hear anything but its own channel. it's not quite as bad on loudspeakers, where both ears hear both speakers.

But that being said, I do tend to hard-pan stuff from time to time. Drum overheads, occasional heavy guitars, and accent-type stuff.

Listen to "Kill The Moonlight" by Spoon on a pair of headphones. There is so much hard panning that its almost disorienting at times. There'll be an entire drum kit panned hard, or times where one channel is totally silent. But its a unique sound that I can't say is necessarily bad.

Just be sure that's what you want because it is a pretty conspicuous technique, especially to audiophiles! And even moreso to audiophiles with headphones :)

But as far as bass frequencies go (like 120Hz and below), put them dead center. I've even heard an engineer say that he would take a mix, split it into 2 pieces (1 that's above 120Hz, and 1 that's below 120Hz) and make the bass part mono and mix it back into the project.

Member
Since: Jul 02, 2003

Mar 22, 2007 11:36 pm

I rarely hard pan anything as well. I usually pan my rythm guitar parts 30-60% depending on the effect I'm going for, If I have a keyboard part it's usually inside the guitar pans by about 1/2 or where ever it sounds good. Since Keyboard is usually Stereo I record each channel on it's own track so that I can better control how much each channel is heard. I also like to put some of the delays, reverbs and other effects I have on the tracks out in the harder panned area ie: >80% sometimes, kind of like just ghosting the parts. Bass I always have centered, and drums are a stereo track with light panning of the individual parts.

Sometimes I'm very conservative in my panning other times more extreme, like the one I have posted now.

In the end you just have to experiment and do what sounds good to you.

Dan

Uh, at least one more time . . .
Member
Since: Feb 07, 2007

Mar 23, 2007 12:00 am

Yeah, I never hard pan instruments; everything said so far makes sense, especially about listening to different types of music to get some ideas--not just about guitar panning, but also the use of reverb and delay.

Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Member
Since: May 10, 2002

Mar 24, 2007 12:39 am

The only thing I pan hard...on occasion... is a stereo keyboard track if it is something I want to be wispy in the background and give the perception of being 'everywhere' while showing movement in the mix per the stereo. I've taken to recording multiple tracks of instruments and creating a dimentional 'width' in mixing the multiple tracks. I then send that 'mix' to a group channel and position the instrument where I want it on a perceptional 'stage'. I will often exagerate a kit to get movement on toms and such. Cymbals are something I push out a little too as they have a tendency to 'spread' even in a live performance.

Ne'er ate 'er
Member
Since: Apr 05, 2006

Mar 24, 2007 01:06 am

Anyone who has listened to "Crimson and Clover" by Tommy James and the Shondells will understand how stereo mixing can go awry.

And I might add - Walt, your Charlton Heston has never sounded better.


'The Flying Dutchman'
Member
Since: Jan 11, 2006

Mar 24, 2007 06:17 am

On Guns N' Roses Appetite For Destruction Slash and Izzy's guitars where panned hard right and hard left. On The Illusions not quite, for example listen to 'Don't Damn Me' on headphones. Slash's guitar starts with the riff and is panned hard right, but you hear his guitar with lot's of reverb and a small delay in the left speaker. That's thruout the whole album and same goes with Izzy's guitar. I've once read that if you pan a guitar hard left or right and copy the guitartrack to the other speaker with a little delay and much reverb and be subtile with the volume knob you kinda creat a '3D' effect or something.

I usually pan both guitars hard left and right and do the stuff above with it. Also sometimes when I have one real rhythm guitar and the other noodling away with small licks. I do the same but the rhythm guitar is panned 60/40.

Typo Szar
Member
Since: Jul 04, 2002

Mar 24, 2007 11:38 am

I use hard left hard right panning for my band. I think initially its because our style of music needs more of that submersive wall of sound (noise?) type style. Plus my guitarists play such different lines when they intertwine it gets really messy. Also i justlike to mix as if im looking at a band from the audience, i think its the most realistic way to place things, two guitar amps stage right and left, bass near teh middle, drums (but my cymbals are both about 40-50 to either side) and the vox up the middle. But when i feel like my lead is not strong enough, ill put the rythm in both sides hard but in the side where the lead is ill keep it much lower and cut any freqs the lead is using.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Mar 25, 2007 02:45 pm

Yep, all of the above have a place in the panning world. I use the same type panning as dB and Tadpui myself especially with guitars. I have rarely ever panned full hard left or right with guitars. I generally stick between 25 to 45 percent when doing two guitar tracks. The exception to that rule would be if there are two guitarist's with two track's each. Then I may pan a little harder on the second tracks but they will also be set back in the mix a little farther to add the illusion of fullness.

Now I also agree with Walt on the drum and keyboard thing. IF you are dealing with a large drum set panning a little harder on the outboard drums and brass will give that live illusion as well. And keyboards that use the stereo spectrum for the aural effect will always be panned for their respective hard left and hard right.

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