Help me set up my beginner home studio :D
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Posted on Feb 28, 2007 07:28 pm
severedhands
Member Since: Feb 28, 2007
Hi guys. I have come across this forum while I was searching for some computer recording guides.
I have a number of questions about computer recording, mixers, mics and different recording programs.
Ok so to begin, I am planning on recording electric guitar through my amp (a little one man band experiment). In a few months I am planning to record with my friend who also has an electric guitar (duet project). Both projects will most likely end up strictly instrumental(ranging from ambient to prog rock).
At home I have a top of the line computer so RAM and CPU are not a problem. I do have an onboard soundcard though.
Im going to go over my plan for recording, and hopefully you guys can give me a few tips.
1. First I want to get a mixer. I was looking at the Yamaga MG12/4. I know it has a lot of inputs and maybe a little bit too much for a 2 man band, but later on I am planning on recording drums, midis, bass etc. Is this one of the best mixers for beginners? I have seen many reviews but none of them really talk about ease of usage. Also a side question, what exactly is Phantom Power? I heard that its needed for condenser mics. Is that true?
2. Next I want to get two Shure SM57 mics as I heard that they are the best for recording from amps. I am really looking forward to experimenting with these mics. First as I mentioned I will only record by myself, but later on I want to record with my friend, one mic per amp. So thats why I need the mixer, to record the sound together. We have recorded in the past with one mic (Shure SM58) but we found that the amps where way too close for this and the sound was muddled. So with two seperate mics, Im hoping to get cleaner sound with the amps further apart.
3. I use Cool Edit Pro 2.1 and my biggest question is: Is there anyway to record through a mixer with two mics and have the sound be recorded unto seperate tracks (one guitar per track) in Cool Edit so I can play around with them seperately? I know I could just record the instruments seperately but I have an issue with timing, especially on more complex pieces. Ive been wondering for a long time if this is possible. Is it possible with a normal computer, two mics and a beginner mixer?
4. Just a few short questions:
- is it better to have a mixer with USB output for computer recording or does it really matter?
- when I output the sound from the mixer into my computer should I just connect it with a normal cable into my mic input in my computer? Will that degrade the recording in anyway?
Thanks for your time guys. I hope your input will spark a few ideas.
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CptTrippsCzar of Turd PolishMember
Since: Jun 20, 2006
Feb 28, 2007 07:39 pm Just a suggestion, I have the EV Cobalt O4. Very comparable to 57's, get good reviews and are pretty darn cheap. There is one guy bashing em all to hell in this link, but the two folks that did like it have 75 years play time total. I will take their word over someone who works at a radio statino and dabbles in "this and that". Plus I own one and use it alot.
reviews.harmony-central.c.../Cobalt+04/10/1
I'll let the others get your mixer questions. But to record seperate tracks you will want to make sure your mixer will carry seperate signals over USB or Firewire to the PC. If you plan on recording multiple signals at once and want editing control over each then you need this. I don't think they are too spendy though really.
meltdown5Faze 2 StudiosMember
Since: Aug 15, 2005
Feb 28, 2007 07:56 pm i would get a USB mixer if you can afford it. Taking the output of your mixer into the mic port on your computer will hurt the sound quality a lot and you wouldn't be able to separate the guitars onto 2 separate tracks that way. USB would allow you to record many tracks at once onto different tracks in your computer, and it will not hurt the sound quality.
I would definably get the sm57's if they fit your budget. they will do GREAT on your guitar amps. great!
phantom power is required for most condenser mics. it however is not required (or needed) for dynamic mics such as the SM57.
hope that helps.
-melty
Feb 28, 2007 08:28 pm Hi
from what you say you want to accomplish you might want to check out the Line6 UX2.
It has two inputs for guitar or bass.
Two mic inputs with phantom power.
And two line inputs.
You can only use 2 at once but if thats all you need...
It also comes with alot of amp,speaker cabinet, and effects simulations.
You just plug it into your usb and use whatever recording program you prefer.
You wouldnt need a mixer if this is all you want to do.
It's 200 dollars
For another 100 you can get the next step up which has a midi controller keyboard thing along with everything the UX2 has.
Whatever you choose just make sure to have fun.
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Feb 28, 2007 08:44 pm To add to what's been put above. . .
some USB mixers only output the two main channels, so you'd have to make sure you separate the tracks before sending them out the USB cable. Some may keep the tracks separate, but I'd be sure before I dropped any coin.
Like mentioned, you wouldn't want to use the mic input on your soundcard, as that would utilize the onboard preamp, which you probably don't want. And all the inputs will have to be together in 1 track (mono).
If you're set on a mixer, I wouldn't hesitate on the mg12/4. I have the 16/4 and I like it much. It's very clean, quiet, and has accurate preamps. I can't think that it'd be hard to use, just get used to the routing in and out, and you're good to go.
I use my 16/4 channel inserts to tap signal from each individual channel on the mixer. You have to have a multiple input card, to accept multiple signals and keep them separate. At the low end, usually you can record 2 channels at one time: left and right. Once you get the two signal into the software, they can be recorded separate, to tweak individually later. In this way you can get several separate signals out of the mg12/4 and into your computer. Which leads me to the next issue:
I would advise you getting an actual recording card. Maudio has the delta 44 (or 66) that would make life a lot easier for you. Better converters (to change audio to digital, and back) and will have better (lower) latency, which is the time for the computer to process the signal and send it back out the outputs. Onboard sound can be used, but I've read lots of people that were very happy they upgraded to a recording card.
I'd agree with the 57 too, they're used everywhere.
If you connect cables from a mixer to your soundcard, a patch cord would be the ticket. Very similar to an instrument cable. They're made in all sorts of configurations.
hope that helps.
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Feb 28, 2007 08:48 pm Ray makes a good point, the UX2 is pretty handy with all it's features, and its flexibility. It's been highly regarded.
Feb 28, 2007 11:28 pm One more thing on the Line6 UX2
It takes the place of the Soundcard, becomes the interface.
Mar 01, 2007 12:51 am Thanks for the responses guys. So I learned a little bit haha.
Ok so how about this. If I do get the Yamaha MG12/4 right now, and I purchase the Line6 UX2 later, will I be able to hook these guys together in a sequence so the MG12/4 is used for all my inputs (mics) and then I output stereo sound (still in seperate tracks) to the Line6 UX2 and then output that into my computer and record it? Will I still get each guitar on different tracks? Also Im not sure how many seperate sounds the UX2 supports. Is it only two? Also how do I know how many stereo sounds the MG12/4 supports? Is it the same number as the number of stereo mic inputs?
AHHH!!! So much to find out before making the purchases haha. Well right now Id just like to know the answer to my first question, if I can hook up the MG12/4 and the UX2 in sequence and still be able to record at least 2 seperate tracks in Cool Edit (or other recording programs). THANK YOU!
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Mar 01, 2007 09:52 am Well, yes, but that would be redundant. The UX2 has 2 inputs, either line input, or xlr preamps. So you wouldn't need to use the mixer.
a quick layout of the devices involved:
microphone --> cable --> preamp --> cable (optional) --> A/D convert --> software
and back out:
software --> D/A convert --> soundcard output --> cable --> monitor solution (headphone, amp, powered speakers, etc).
The UX2 will input 2 separate tracks at a time.
If you plug, say, 5 things into the mixer, and use the outputs of the mixer, then you'll only have 2 signals, left & right. All the individual channels will be summed together. Or, like i mentioned above, you can plug 5 things into the mixer, then use the channel inserts to tap signal from each individual channel.
But this will only work if you have a soundcard with that many inputs. The UX2 only inputs 2 channels at a time, so you'd be limited to 2.
Also, when thinking of tracking and recording, usually it's done in mono, as there are usually one 1 source of a sound. Keyboards can ouput stereo, but it doesn't sound like you're up to this yet. Voice is usually mono, guitars are usually mono, etc. There can be multiple microphones on 1 source, like 2 or 3 on an acoustic, but they're still mono.
Mar 01, 2007 12:11 pm Ok cool thanks for the reply.
A few quick questions:
1. Is the number of stereo sounds that a mixer can handle determined by its bus? The Yamaha MG12/4 is a 4 bus mixer so does that mean it can handle 4 seperate sounds without mixing them into mono?
2. Im starting to think that getting a USB interface is the best solution. At the beginning it was hard to understand some of this stuff, since I was just introduced to it. People said "USB interface" and I said "huh?". So yea here is my question. The UX2 is looking pretty nice, but unfortunately I cant find it on ebay for a decent price. I was looking at the M-Audio Fast Track Pro. Link: www.zzounds.com/a--884907/item--MDOFTRACKPRO
It has good reviews and seems to have all the features of the UX2 and more on top of that. Plus there is a lot of listing on ebay for it. Is the M-Audio Fast Track Pro better then the UX2?
3. pjk, you mentioned "tapping" into the signal by using channel inserts. Im not sure what this means, but Im assuming your talking about outputing each signal seperately from the mixer into a soundcard (but the problem arrives with having too little inputs in the soundcard). Is that correct?
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Mar 01, 2007 02:44 pm Yep, on #3. You got it. each channel can be tapped, so each signal can be recorded individually. But you need X number of inputs to match X number of channels coming off the board.
On #1. On a mixer, main output is considered left and right. Stereo is fine when listening, but when recording, stereo isn't usually an issue, because so many things are mono. So if there's 4 busses, then there's 4 mono outputs on the mixer, that you can sum channels into.
Usually this would be considered 'Mains', and 'Sub-group' or 'Sub-outs'. So you can have channel 1 go to main left, channel 2 go to main right, channel 3 go to sub left, and channel 4 go to sub right.
Or, you can channel 1 and 2 go to main left, channel 3, 4, 5 and 6 go to main right, etc, etc, etc,.
This works fine for boards with 4 preamps, but on my 16/4, i have 10 preamps channels, so I can't output 8 channels individually using main and sub outs.
So I use the channel inserts on each of those 8 channels. Plugging a 1/4" TS jack in to the first click takes signal out of the mixer, right after the preamp and gain knob, but before the fader and the rest of the mixer.
This is a cheap and easy way to get direct outs for each channel, without paying for a larger board that has direct outs.
As far as the Maudio vs Line6, the UX2 has the modelling software, which seems pretty cool. It can model all kinds of stuff, plus works for vocals too.
On the other hand, the fastrack pro has midi, and spdif i/o, where the ux2 has only digital out. May not be an issue, but midi is nice to have. I'd say it depends on how you work, and what's more important; midi or modelling software. Both can be done afterward, with other solutions, so it's not real simple to say one is better. It's more up to you.
Mar 01, 2007 10:17 pm How well do USB mixers work? I found a few from Alesis. Here is one: www.zzounds.com/a--884907/item--ALEMULTIMIX12USB
There is other models they have and some received better reviews. But either way this will allow me to do multitracking along with your usual mixer stuff.
Even this one: www.zzounds.com/a--884907/item--ALEMULTIMIX8USB
Has the inputs I need and some effects.
Do you guys have any experiences with these? and would you recommend them at all?
PJOCMember
Since: Mar 09, 2007
Mar 09, 2007 03:18 pm have you tried audacity.com
This is free multitrack recording and editing software. It is ideal for getting into multitrack recording, you can record one track at a time while listening to other tracks, and there is a good choice of editing tools. You might need a USB interface for getting your music into the computer, but experiment with the line/mic in first.
PJOC
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
Mar 09, 2007 03:43 pm again, severedhands, your limiting your inputs. even though you can plug 10 things into the mixer, you can only send 2 signals to the computer through the USB. Left & Right. Hence them saying 'Stereo'. That's just their way of saying 2 channels.
So all signals would be going to the PC summed together already.
It's also only 16bit, which will limit your headroom later. It can be done, but most of the world is recording at 24 bit, due to it's higher headroom.
