Nov 07, 2006 11:01 pm I'm guessing that since you are using a 1/8" adapter that you are going into a stock sound card. Without a doubt this will cause limitations. You will notice a huge improvement by getting into a specialized sound card.
Acoustic Guitar Recording - HELP
Posted on Nov 07, 2006 09:48 pm
crobs808
Loyal Follower Of...
Member Since: Nov 07, 2006
Can someone please help me??? I have been recording for years on my computer, directly plugged in from my guitar, to my computer's line-in via a 1/4" to 1/8th" converter to fit in the back of my computer.
I now have a $2,500 guitar (Taylor 714ce) and the Fishman Aura acoustic imaging system, but I am still getting muted/mufffled recordings or really trebly/electronicy sounding recordings. They are not rich or real sounding as I want them to be.
see, here's some samples:
www.corusa.com/music/media/1-fight.rm
www.corusa.com/music/media/time%20to%20fold.rm
www.corusa.com/music/media/clown.rm
www.bobschneiderlive.com/...Head%20Heard.rm
www.corusa.com/music/media/hello.rm
more samples:
www.corusa.com/music/
Can I accomplish good acoustic guitar recorings without buying mics, can I just be directly plugged in via my built in pickup in my Taylor guitar?
thanks,
::: crobs808
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Nov 07, 2006 11:01 pm I'm guessing that since you are using a 1/8" adapter that you are going into a stock sound card. Without a doubt this will cause limitations. You will notice a huge improvement by getting into a specialized sound card.
Nov 07, 2006 11:13 pm Ditto, per BeerHunter. A soundcard made for recording will make a huge difference. Whole different animal than a sound card provided with a PC ment primarily for play back.
In regard to the need for mics and such......That is all a matter of taste. You make like the sound provided from your pick-ups. Personaly, I like to mic an accoustic such as the one you are describing. I also like to use a tube pre-amp in the chain.
Nov 08, 2006 12:22 am ok, so did i waste a lot of money on this fishman aura? i can still return it.
also, i have an upgraded soudcard, but still has 1/8th in ports. Soundblaster Audigy 4. cost $150, but i guess its the wrong kind.
i am getting an imac in a few days...it has everything built in meaning i cant add a sound card, so is there a USB input thing i can get for my guitar?
also, what tube preamp do you recommend to replace my fishman aura. it was $350 so anything that price or under is ok...preferrably from americanmusical.com since i can do a easy swap.
::: crobs808
Nov 08, 2006 03:04 am man, honestly, if you're wanting to get the tone of a guitar like that, using the pickups wouldn't do it justice...i'd go with an entry level Large Diaphragm Condensor (under $200 USD) into a cheap preamp perhaps with built in D/A conversion (i think line 6 makes something that can do it, and i know Cakewalk has a package aswell)....you're soundcard is your weakest link in your signal chain right now, so i'd replace that first...go with a USB interface if you're never gonna record more than two things at once.
Nov 08, 2006 07:59 am Those built-in pickups are terrific for live performances. You can just plug straight into the PA, do a little EQ and compression, and there ya go. And the Fishman Aura are about the top of the line as far as those pickup systems go.
But when it comes to recording acoustic guitar, nothing beats a microphone at about the 12th or 14th fret, about 8"-12" away from the fretboard.
A large diaphragm condensor would work well because it can double as a vocal mic. I think that small diaphragm condensors are more traditionally used on acoustics, especially in pairs (the additional one near the bridge, same distance away). But even a dynamic like a SM57 would be a step up from recording direct, as far as I'm concearned. I got some OK results using an SM57 on acoustic for a couple of years.
Nov 08, 2006 08:17 am Hey Cobs, I've got a 454CE (12 string) that I've been curious about recording as well.
I was curious if you've used the built-in system to record. The DVD of people playing through the pickup system was very impressive.
I'm going to start working on recording it, after I get our xmas project out of the way.
I have 2 LDC, and a pair SDC to record with, so I'm going to be doing some comparitive tests.
Nov 08, 2006 08:48 am Ok, thanks guys, I have decided to do the mics setup instead...
I have to buy from AmericanMusical.com to get this fishman aura exchanged. I won't be doing any live performances so I really don't need it if I am going to use mic's
Which of these is the best option?
1. www.americanmusical.com/item--i-ROD-NT5-FRS.html
2. www.americanmusical.com/i...C1000S2PAK.html
3. www.americanmusical.com/item--i-STU-C4SET.html
Or would it be better to get a more expensive single mic to get better quality? I really do not want to spend more than $350 and I need to buy from that site, so if you find a better pair using the search please let me know.
thanks you,
::: crobs808
Nov 08, 2006 09:36 am I don't think that any of those that you listed would let you down. They're all very popular home studio choices, and I think that they'd all give you great results.
But now you run into a problem, and that's your sound card and preamp. You need a preamp involved in this equation somewhere. This device boosts the microphone's signal from the very weak mic-level signal to the slightly stronger line-level signal. Plus it delivers 48V phantom power, which is required for condensor microphones.
If you're after great results, those mics will deliver. But not without a preamp. And once you convert the signal to 1/8" and put it through that stock cheapo sound card, any improvement in quality will kind of go out the window.
So, mics aren't the only thing that you'll need. Factor in a preamp, and ideally a sound card designed for recording.
Nov 08, 2006 10:35 am Quote:
So, mics aren't the only thing that you'll need. Factor in a preamp, and ideally a sound card designed for recording.
Something like a Presonus Firebox might be just the ticket. Recording interface with 2 built-in pres and 48v phantom power.
www.presonus.com/firebox.html
The sky is the limit on what you can spend but if it were me I would pickup something like the Firebox, a LDC and a pencil condensor. Put the LDC about 2' in front of the sound hole and the pencil at the 12th fret slightly angled towards the sound hole. There are however, several options to get great sound from your Taylor. It is a matter of how much you want to spend.
Nov 08, 2006 06:04 pm Quote:
Something like a Presonus Firebox might be just the ticket.
Good call, BeerHunter. If you're going with a Mac, you're going to want to go with FireWire. Something like the unit BeerHunter suggests appears to have everything you'll need.
Nov 08, 2006 06:17 pm great suggestion, but ouch!! the presonus firebox alone is $300, plus the $200 mics, and i only got $350 total...hmm
Thank you for the advice though...any way I can get a cheaper preamp so I can save most of the money for decent microphones?
::: crobs808
Nov 08, 2006 07:24 pm Here's how I go into my Mac:
Behringer mixer similar to this:
www.zzounds.com.../item--BEHUB802
Behringer FCA202 Firewire Interface:
www.zzounds.com...item--BEHFCA202
That's less than $150, leaving you plenty of money for a couple decent microphones. I use an SM-57 and a Behringer B-2 (the B-1 is good too). I record acoustic guitar a lot, and I'm pretty pleased with the sound I get.
Works for me!
Nov 08, 2006 07:32 pm Yes.. i've got satisfactory results using both SM57 and an AKGC1000S plugged in direct into m-audio (panned hard L & R). That Taylor must've sounded yummy on my setting.. Can I borrow it? lol.. i'm just using a cheap cheap cheap nylon stringed guitar .
Nov 08, 2006 07:55 pm You can get by with a single SDC or LDC to record acoustic guitar. The matched pair isn't a necessity, but definitely a nice-to-have. A single SDC will still sound better than a direct-injected peizo pickup in my opinion.
There are several good 2 in/2 out firewire or USB interfaces around like Jim pointed out. There are even some good PCI interfaces like the M-Audio Audiophile. Some will even have built-in preamps so keep an eye out for that when judging price.
Heck, some small mixers are starting to come with USB ports on them, eliminating the need for a separate interface and preamp. Behri, Mackie, Peavey, Alesis all make them in budget price ranges.
Basically there are tons of options. We can't tell you what will work best for you but there are some good suggestions in this thread to get you looking in the right direction for an entry-level setup.
Nov 08, 2006 08:17 pm ok guys, how does this look...here is my AmericanMusical.com cart ready to check out.
I figured two condenser mics were better than the sm57 (non condenser) and one b2. is this correct? aren't condenser's better than dynamic for acoustic guitar? ready to buy when i hear what you guys think.
Shopping Cart: (1 mixer, 2 mics, 1 firewire box)
i know i went a little over budget, but they let you charge your choice of 3 or 5 payments same as cash to an existing debit card once every 30 days, so you dont have to apply for credit or anything, which works for me.
Thanks!! you guys have been so "instrumental" in my search ;) no pun intended. - PLEASE let me know if this is a good buy/setup for me.
::: crobs808
Nov 08, 2006 09:10 pm Looks pretty good...the only thing I might change is in the microphone setup. To give yourself more flexibility, you might want only one B-2 and one smaller condensor mic (I got my eye on the Behringer B-5 or even the C2 Matched Pair.)
I happen to like Behringer, but there are many other brands out there as well.
Good luck, and make sure you post some recordings after you get the new gear all hooked up and figured out.
By the way, what software are you going to use to record on the iMac? GarageBand? Logic? Other?
Nov 08, 2006 09:30 pm my opinion is to wait until you can get equipment that will do a $2K guitar justice. Put what you're doing in perspective and take the extra time to know what your getting and why you're getting it... and save the extra couple grand to do it right.
You have a top end guitar, but you're getting bottom end equipment to record with. saying you want to record a $2k guitar on $350 of recording equipment basically deserves a response "Take the guitar back, get $2k in recording equipment and then a $350 guitar."
You're not going to get good acoustic tone without good mics... most of us can get away with substandard mics because we have substandard gear and nothing's really going to be lost... I'm not going to waste my time perfecting the kick mic on my pearl export because it's never going to sound as good as a $2K kit and I can just trigger it. :) If I had a high end kit I wouldn't dream of using triggeres because the kit should already sound the part so I would need equipment to capture the sound as it is.
A $2K guitar sure as hell better sound good. so get equipment that is going to do the least damage to the sound... probably along the lines of an Apogee Rosetta 200 ( I think it also needs a preamp) ... mic wise ... I have an Sennheiser ME66K6 which would do the guitar justice but it's not meant for instrument recording. Probably a small diaphram condenser of some sort... the ME66 was around $600 but I'm sure sennheiser makes an instrument version in the $300 -$400 range.
Nov 08, 2006 11:59 pm well, whether i like it or not, my budget is only about $400 max. i can dream all i want, but its school tuition to finish my bachelors or top of the line equipment, and i'd rather finish school right now and wait on reward myself later with the "fun" stuff.
i alreay know using mics will be a huge improvement over built in pickup right now, so i can be happy with semi-good equipment for a few years.
since i play more unplugged than plugged i have no reason to take back my awesome guitar, it's great for the youth group and on retreats with it's big bold unplugged sound, like that of a dreadnaught and since it's a cedar top it has a bolder sustain which is nice for my situation.
my objective is just to get a decent sound since this is just a hobby, not a studio perfect releasing album sound. i am not pursuing a career in music, i just want something fun to play around with, and not so expensive that i need warranties or worry about breaking something.
i appreciate the concern, but i think you ar emore serious about it than i am...i was a good/decent sound, not a perfect sound.
QUESTION:
can someone explain to me though why i should go ahead and get mismatched mics, rather than two B2's? I though matched mics was good...why do i want one large and one small? thanks.
::: crobs808
oh, on my iMac im running Windows and MacOS, so I can use whatever...what do you recommend? All I've been using is cakewalk music creator (i know it is for noobs, but i dont want all the thousand knob software hassle, i just want software that records hq audio and takes care of stuff without me having to tweak every little setting)
Nov 09, 2006 02:44 am Matched pairs are great for things like drum overheads where you want a balanced stereo sound, but that's not necessarily what you're after with an acoustic guitar. Before you buy mics figure out what sort of sound you like and aim for that. Do you want to record solo or with a band setting? Do you want a stereo guitar track or mono? What's essential to the sound for you? What's your recording space like as a room - is there a lot of external sound coming in, is it an acoustically pleasing room? All the will make a difference to what's suitable. For instance, with a solo guitar, room sound can really add to the recording, but if your room sounds horrific then there's no point capturing the sound of that.
There's loads of info here and elsewhere on mics, but in brief..
Small Diaphragm Condensers - Good for supporting roles on the whole, like acoustic guitars where there's a whole band but you want an acoustic guitar rhythm track. SDCs will pick up high and mid frequencies more readily than very low. Thus they're great for violin, drum overheads etc, terrible for kick drums and bass guitars.
Large Diaphragm Condensers - Great for that fuller, solo sound - acoustic guitars where there's a lot less going on as they're made to pick up the full range of the instrument. On the whole the frequency response will go a lot lower than with SDCs, so they're ace for cellos, open-sounding kick drums etc, but less great with things like Glockenspiels where you'll have to deal with the unwanted low part of the attack sound.
Small Diaphragm Dynamics - Dynamics have a less open sound that condensers, but they take more volume (sound pressure level - SPL) on the whole. So they're ace when you want to close-mic that marshall (yuck) stack with the volume at 11, because it probably won't damage the mic. But for lower volume sources they're less detailed, on the whole they have less of the high frequency response that condensers have. I tend to think of dynamics as something you have to force open with a loud source, otherwise it's going to sound relatively muffled - which can work nicely but won't give you the true sound of your source.
Large Diaphragm Dynamics - Generally used for rock kick drums and bass amps for similar reasons as SDDs are used for loud guitar amps. They often have a reduced response to higher frequencies in order to isolate the low end sources you're trying to capture.
Mic Patterns:
Think of mic patterns as a clock face. 12 is what you're pointing the mic at.
Cardoid - With your source at 12, cardoids will pick up well from quarter to to quarter past.
Hypercardiod - Five to to five past
Omni - The whole clock, or near as dammit - so great for room mics.
Figure of Eight - Ten to to ten past, and also twenty past to twenty to. Great for two people sitting opposite eachother sharing a mic.
There are others, but that's the stuff you're most likely to run into, and i need to get to work.
Like i said, think about the qualities you want in your recordings and go and try the mics before you buy.
Good luck with making your choices.
Nov 09, 2006 04:01 am that's what i should have done...just posted a sample of exactly what i want to sound like, then let you experts tell me what two mics i need...
ok, these were recored with a Taylor 714ce, and I also have a taylor 714ce, so I want to achieve this sound...
Samples:
www.bobschneiderlive.com/...showtornado.mp3
www.bobschneiderlive.com/...goftheworld.mp3
::: crobs808
Nov 09, 2006 06:25 am Sounds like one mic to me (though there may be a room mic in there too, it's hard to tell), probably an LDC, maybe a tube mic, but a decent tube mic is out of your price range. You can easily get that sort of bare honest sound from an LDC in a nice room. How's your room?
If you're going for a minimal set-up, just guitar and then vocals separately i'd try to get the best mic and the best pre for your money. As in a one or two channel pre, you'll get more quality for your money. ..and definitely try it all out before you buy.
Nice sounding guitar btw, very well balanced frequency-wise.
Nov 09, 2006 01:52 pm ok so i guess i'oll get that firewire box, the mixer mini-board, and then a B2 pro mic and a B5 mic? sound good?
so about the firewire box, does it sent the audio digitally thru the firewire, or do i still ave to convert down to 1/8th"?
::: crobs808
Nov 09, 2006 01:57 pm The info will go down the firewire .
I should probably mention that the audio outs of that unit are something you would use for 'direct monitoring' of the marerial you're feeding it .
Nov 10, 2006 05:26 pm I'll kind of jump in at the deep end here crobs.
When I record acoustic, I use both the mic's and the onboard Fishman and combine the sound.
For an audio interface that wont break the bank and is an absolute dream I recomend going the route of the Line 6 UX-2. I have a couple much higher end audio interfaces and find myself turning to that little beast very often. It not only has the regular amp sims in it but it has the most killer mic pre amp sims on the market. I use them for both vocal and the acoustic guitar miccing. We reviewed both the UX-1 and UX-2 awhile ago. www.homerecordingconnecti...tory&id=727
Nov 10, 2006 06:00 pm Oh ya, I forgot to add it is USB connected and runs with ASIO or WDM drivers. And the XLR connections will supply 48volt phantom power via the USB connection as well.
Nov 10, 2006 08:46 pm not to be pickin at your post noize (you've helped me out a lot in the past) but i believe the UX-2 is the only one that has phantom power. As you said thought great little box for the money. I've been putting the UX-1 through some interesting situations latly.
crobs; the set up you're describing soudn like it sould work for you man. I'd like to add, do as much reserch on anyhting as you can before you buy, some times you might think you need something when you don't or you might need something that you did. Most firewire or USB interfaces have built in pre's now days that will work fine for what you're doing . Mic's have also come a bit of a distance there are some beginner packs out there at work very well the AT 2020(i think) pack comes with a LDC and SDC mic and it runs about 150 bucks . the fire box or UX2 should work and bam 350 .
Nov 12, 2006 04:23 pm darn...is there something just like that line6 ux2 that has two mic inputs, and 1/4" guitar input, but doesn't look so kidlike??
also, it is usb, not firewire, and i know (from my video editing experience) that although firewire is rated at only 400mbps and usb2.0 is rated at 480mbps, firewire always performs better.
so is there a firewire version of the ux2 that is maybe flatter or all white, all black? this PRESONUS firewirre box is the only other thing i could find with both mic and 1/4" inputs...
www.americanmusical.com/item--i-PRS-INSPIRE.html
======
Anyway, This is what i'd like to get...
1. Behringer B2 Pro LDC mic
2. Behringer B5 SDC mic
3. Line6 UX2 (or a more desired alternative device that looks better + firewire instead of usb)
Also: do i still need the Behringer Eurorack UB802 mixing board if i get the UX2?
::: crobs808
Nov 13, 2006 01:33 am I don't see why you'd need a mixer, no.
Nov 13, 2006 03:00 pm Without a doubt you'll be happier with better quality equipment. However, you've said you're a student (budget) and you're not majoring in music; that this is all just a fun side project (justification).
Sure, you can go the route of LDC -> preamp -> audio converter -> computer. This gives you the most flexibility when upgrading, as you can change out any individual unit. But as someone else has pointed out, your budget doesn't allow you to choose equipment on par with your guitar, so this isn't that great of an advantage.
Some models of audio converters do indeed come with their own preamps and phantom power supply. This typically results in a savings by getting one unit to do the work of two.
If you want to save even more money, there are a growing number of USB microphones. You simply plug the microphone into a USB port on your computer. That's it. (The drawback? Can't be used with normal audio equipment, like a PA.)
Is the quality as good? Compared to what you have listed, I don't think you'll notice a difference either way. Chances are you're recording in an acoustically untreated room, so you'll have more problems with that. (As someone else has already pointed out.)
I have an acoustic/electric guitar, too. When I record through the electronics, it is just as you've described it. I've also recorded through an SM58 ($100), through the preamp of a karaoke machine (existing equip -- no extra outlay), and into the audio in port on a PowerBook G4. Even though this isn't the greatest signal chain, starting with the dynamic mike and cheap preamp, it sounds so much better than plugging the guitar in directly (through a DI, of course).
I would think that a $100 LDC would be better than a $100 dynamic, but I do not know for sure. Most project studios don't use condensers under about $400; pro studios may use top-of-the-line $7,000 condensers. (I realize that home recording isn't as stringent.) Price isn't always an indicator of quality, but the more important issue is that you probably won't be able to hear the difference between a $100 and $400 condenser because of the quality of the rest of your gear. (I'm assuming, of course.)
Since you're a student, chances are you won't be able to do much in terms of acoustic room treatments. Do the best you can. God help you if you're recording in a 10' x 10' x 10' room!
Don't forget you'll want a decent playback unit as well. Headphones are great for tracking, but maybe not the best choice for mixing. If you're just recording solo guitar, then don't worry about this part. In fact, you won't even need 'phones for tracking in that case. Mastering might be a bit tricky, but not a high priority in your case anyway.
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