Audio Deception???

Posted on

Typo Szar
Member Since: Jul 04, 2002

So i always hear about like studio trickery, making bands sound tighter, bigger, cooler.... well i know we can make em sound bigger and more on pitch and all that, but i never figured out how to make em sound tighter? like gettin my drummers lil off parts on time, gettin everyone to just stop on time stuff like that. Basically i wanna get my drum sound tighter, coz its soundin relaly loose on some parts. Anyhow, r their only old tricks we can do mroe of less manually or some effects or anything out there, eq that makes them hit nicer, compression? just askin guys.

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Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 05, 2006 09:47 am

hire better musicians :-)

Typo Szar
Member
Since: Jul 04, 2002


Jun 05, 2006 09:48 am

im thinkin the musicians would rather hire a better engineer....

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 05, 2006 09:49 am

out of time musicians with the best engineer in the world are still out of time musicians...

garbage in, garbage out...

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 05, 2006 09:50 am

Seriously tho, at time you can cut little bits of audio and shift them a bit to keep time, but ya can't do it for every instrument all the time...that trick doesn't always work depending on the notes themselves, decay, mic bleeding and other factors.

All the tricks in the world won't fix bad playing...

You could see if your app has some sort of audio quantization function or something...thats easy to do with midi, not so much with audio tho.

www.TheLondonProject.ca
Member
Since: Feb 07, 2005


Jun 05, 2006 10:08 am

Quote:
hire better musicians :-)


... or hire better magicians :-)

I would think that David Copperfield could lend a helping hand. I mean if he can make a woman preggo without touching her...

Seriously though, I think that a fairly tight song can be made even tighter using tools like compression but I don't think you can do much with a really loose song. Quantizing audio sounds like crap IMO.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002


Jun 05, 2006 10:12 am

I have never used the quantize feature for audio, so I can't speak for it's quality, but I can easily see how it could be VERY hard to do and keep it sounding real...

The band would be well served to keep practicing the tunes they want to record for a while longer...I suspect if they are out of time, they are likely making other mistakes that will require punching in and out and crap too...all that takes time and much of it is preventable but just practicing...you can only record what they give you...it's on them more than you as an engineer.

Prince CZAR-ming
Member
Since: Apr 08, 2004


Jun 05, 2006 10:21 am

Quote:
gettin everyone to just stop on time


That right there seems to follow along with dB's idea. If the band isn't playing as a tight group to begin with, then the product will show that.

I've been in one band that would play each song a different way every time, and another band that can play each song exactly the same every time.

I tried recording the first mentioned band, and it was a total failure. Nobody knew how the play the song by themself, so anything short of a live session wouldn't work.

Conversely, the second mentioned band, we went into someone else's studio to cut a demo, and were done in 2.5 hours. We all knew our parts, and were tight to begin with.

Member
Since: Jul 23, 2004


Jun 05, 2006 10:27 am

Even quantizing done by someone who is good at it just makes a song sound sterile. Get the parts tight the old fashioned way.. but also, some looseness is a good thing.

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Jun 05, 2006 11:40 am

there's a plugin' called "beat detective" for PT that quantizes tracks (usually drums) in real time. i've seen it used quite often, combine that with "drumagog" and you'll have 'perfect' drum tracks....er if that's what you want.

Member
Since: Feb 02, 2006


Jun 05, 2006 01:34 pm

?

How are you Recording the Drums?

Are you recording the Band Live?

Can the Drummer hear them self?

Some drummers can't play solo!!!

You need to take alook at all of this,then work on the week parts.

Ken Sutton
WaterFall Records.
www.waterfallrecordings.com

patron saint of quality footwear
Member
Since: May 30, 2002


Jun 05, 2006 04:42 pm

I have a very exclusive recording practice.
I only have one client.

..and he is really bad, I just can't get anything to sound right.

patron saint of quality footwear
Member
Since: May 30, 2002


Jun 05, 2006 04:42 pm

Hey that's not fair, you're a pretty crappy engineer.

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Jun 05, 2006 05:42 pm

LOL!! somebody knows your password!

patron saint of quality footwear
Member
Since: May 30, 2002


Jun 05, 2006 05:59 pm

Hahaha, I wish.

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Jun 05, 2006 06:01 pm

oh lol!! man you're confusing me haha

not very hard to do though i guss.

patron saint of quality footwear
Member
Since: May 30, 2002


Jun 05, 2006 06:04 pm

Lol, both posts were mine, I wear both hats in this relationship.

edit0r
Member
Since: Aug 17, 2004


Jun 05, 2006 07:53 pm

Hours and hours of drum editing! Kick snare and toms aren't too hard to shift around, but if the cymbals are all out of whack as well, you're screwed.

I edit my drums, then delete the silence between each single kick drum hit. Then I normalize each hit to 0 dB (unless its very dynamic, but most of the stuff I'm mixing is punk or straight rock anyways)

If the bass tracks are horrible I'll cut the first part of each note (transient plus some decay), put them in time, normalize, and then time stretch so they reach the next note (depending upon the song of course).

And if everything is absolute dogs bollocks, but the bands payed you for a good recording, break out the instruments and re-record it yourself.

Anyway, just some ideas.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jun 05, 2006 09:40 pm

Yep, keeping a tight sound is really up to the musicians themselves for the most part. Yes you can use compresion an gating to help bring things in a bit tighter, but it wont help with thing like cymbals and instruments with lots of ringing in their sounds as CS pointed out. But that is where clever gating can help to a certain degree. But too much of that kind of thing and starts to become very apperant to the listener.

EQ cant really help much there unless it is tightening a bass or guitar sound up. Works on drums as well. For that it is basically trial and error though. As there is no set formula since each band and their playing style are differant.

Kaos is only a form of insanity
Member
Since: Feb 03, 2005


Jun 06, 2006 01:01 am

I know things have to be tight, but come on If everything is 100% exact you may aswell just program the music. What is the point in having to make everything so sterile. we are not robots and at times if everything is smack smack on then the feeling goes and the whole song is lost into production. When you see even the best bands live their are always and I mean always little things that aren't maybe 100%. I thought the whole Idea of recording real muscicians was to get a real music feel.

But hey what do I know I'm only a drummer LOL

Typo Szar
Member
Since: Jul 04, 2002


Jun 06, 2006 03:45 am

Thanx for all the responses guys

Yeah, my band isnt exactly not tight as a band. We practice really hard and tightness is one of our priorities. But i was just listening to the recording and it doesnt suond like us one some parts. Maybe i just posed the wrong question. Basically how do i make teh sound tighter, because some of the drum parts are maybe just alittle awkward, im not sure if the playing is off or is it just some kind of sound problem. Anyhow, thanx for the all the responses... maybe i dont even know what im asking yet haha

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Jun 06, 2006 08:21 pm

Crux, put the tune up for us to listen to. And maybe we can hear, or not hear what you are taling about.

edit0r
Member
Since: Aug 17, 2004


Jun 07, 2006 04:18 am

Quote:
I know things have to be tight, but come on If everything is 100% exact you may aswell just program the music. What is the point in having to make everything so sterile. we are not robots and at times if everything is smack smack on then the feeling goes and the whole song is lost into production. When you see even the best bands live their are always and I mean always little things that aren't maybe 100%. I thought the whole Idea of recording real muscicians was to get a real music feel.


"Can you make us sound like [insert famous band name here]? We'll pay you." - 16 year old musician

So they're nowhere near as tight as [insert famous band name here]. I want some money and something new to mix though.

So here I am sitting in front of Cubase SX3 for hours on end cursing at how bad they are, but I'm enjoying my new mic, and even though I'm turning them into robots, I suppose I'm learning something new.





Kaos is only a form of insanity
Member
Since: Feb 03, 2005


Jun 07, 2006 11:31 pm

[quote]Can you make us sound like [insert famous band name here]? We'll pay you." - 16 year old musician

So they're nowhere near as tight as [insert famous band name here]. I want some money and something new to mix though.

So here I am sitting in front of Cubase SX3 for hours on end cursing at how bad they are, but I'm enjoying my new mic, and even though I'm turning them into robots, I suppose I'm learning something new.[/quote]

CS you misunderstand me. i am not saying that sloppy playing nor lack of practice is any excuse. Their is a hell of a difference between a band who are just crappy or a band who play well together and produce feel to their music even if it is a little off.

I am still new to recording and prefer to record live (band complete) as you certainly get that feel factor t the music more than if every track overdubbed one at a time.

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