Running a session
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Posted on May 16, 2006 08:30 pm
Josh Rose
JR Productions
Member Since: Mar 03, 2005
Hey again everyone.
I finally am begining to have paying bands record at my studio (obviously for a rediculously low price). Im just wondering on some ways to run a session and how to actually go about recording the band. For the band that came to my studio last weekend, I had the bassist going straight into my toneport and into adobe audition. The two guitars were run clean into AA via channel outs on my mixer (didnt have a DI but it sounded mediocore). So all of them are playing together, although the drummer is the only one wearing headphones (with only the bass in them). After that was all done, we went back and redid some of the parts that the guitarists messed up on. Then we "reamped" the guitars through toneport and got the sound we wanted.
Is this a practical approach to doing things? What goes on in a typical studio session? Also, im looking into buying an ART headphone amp so that everyone can hear everyone.
Thanks
josh
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HuePinnipedal Czar (: 3= Member
Since: Apr 11, 2004
May 16, 2006 10:57 pm Make sure each of them do their parts without any of the other band members around... never let them even see eachother until the album is done . Start with the drummer, since he's the only guy who knows his part from the first note to the last . Then the bassist, who really has nothing better to do, and will think it's cool not to be 'last' . Late sessions for the guitar(s), and really late sessions for the vocals . If you stay away from the drugs, things will go swimmingly .
Good luck !
Just kidding Josh... this is a good topic that could use a bit of light . The experiences I've had would have gone better using the above mentioned formula, but I'm sure someone 'round here could shed a bit of light on the way it's 'typicaly' done . Great topic !
May 17, 2006 12:14 am Tuff question, much depends on the skill level of the individual players, their studio experience, how well rehearsed they are for the session, and the over all level of band unity. Unless you have a totally dedicated facility, I find that being prepared to totally change the game plan mid-stride is to be expected. Things rarely go as expected or turn out the way we initially prefer .... but in that is where some of the magic happens. I like doing either totally seperate multitracking,..or.. Drums and guitar together to get the drums, then later replace and/or overdub guitars, then bring in bass, then keys VOX final. Funny that Hue said "never let them even see each other until the album is done.", cause I find that dismissing 1/2 the group after they rehearse a bit and the drummer starts getting levels, can sometimes be the wisest decision that an engineer can make when running a session... unless, ofcourse, they're hell bent on staying to help produce. That way, cabin fever doesn't set in and they are fresh. Vocalist that smoke suck, try to get 'em to quit a day in advance.... cigarettes make voices sound really thin sometimes, even on good mics. Just like Hue, I prefer the seperated thing...Its like building your own Frankenstein...but once again, they'd better have it together for that approach, which is unlikely until you attract the kinda clientelle that are willing to drop $50 plus and hour. My friend produces/records about 1/2 the hip hop artists in Toledo, OH where I live. He runs about 25-30 hours weekly(not much secne here), and I noticed that people want good stuff, but in today's day and age, speed is equally important. Everyone wants a Scoobie Snack to brag about when they roll down the road. Headphone amp definately needed and the reamping of the guitar is an awsome technique that saves mad time.
With the headphone amp, you may find that seperating everyones amps the best you can, or using outboard modules, with everyone playing along will be the most practical way to get the drums down quickly. Reason being, MOST drummers do not practice with a meternome as they should. The drummer will likely make a few minor mistakes but band will learn to disguise them later. Then you've got all the other dummy parts recorded and can take out or remove them as you see fit. Who knows, one may even be a keeper. Don't forget to record single snare, bass drum, cymbal, and tom hits so you can later replace poorly performed drum hits when editing. Then, instead of spending endless time tracking, you can spend more time on mixing. Always have a back up plan.. Trust me, it really pisses of bands if your computer, loaded with unnecessary crap like games and personal stuff, crashes right before they get their mixed down Scoobie Snack.
Finally, you may find it beneficial to simply ask the customers what they condiser value, and build the sessions around that. You might feel like a cheese ball asking, but in the end, they ultimately are the ones that help mold your reputation.... which is Huge in this business.
May 17, 2006 12:17 am Quote:
]Finally, you may find it beneficial to simply ask the customers what they condiser value, and build the sessions around that. You might feel like a cheese ball asking, but in the end, they ultimately are the ones that help mold your reputation.... which is Huge in this business.
Word up, awesome point.
HuePinnipedal Czar (: 3= Member
Since: Apr 11, 2004
May 17, 2006 09:17 am Agreed, that is a good point... also reguarding that point, y'a got'ta feel-out the customer to make sure they understand what's involved in getting them where they want to be with the product . Extras such as 'Scoobie Snacks', shouldn't put the cost up too much, but an inch can turn into a mile pretty quickly .
Also, when it comes time for them to record, each will want to voice their particular knowledge and 'expertice' on their sound . They will expect it to be relevant, and even noticeably heard in the recording . Sometimes this is possible, sometimes it is not . Begin cushening the blow for them prior to the final without sounding condisending, if in case, it turns out to be a drastic change in what they percieve as the 'right' way to do things .
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
May 17, 2006 09:22 am Good stuff there, in my limited experience in the studio, things went thusly:
First the pleasantries were exchanged, chatted about structure, who's doing what, etc.
Then the engineer got to setting up the drum mics. Our drummer used the studio's drum kit, and would normally use his own snare and cymbals, but some bonehead (me) forgot his cymbals in our practice room, so we had to use the engineer's cymbals.
Anyway, setting up the drum mics took around an hour. This can, and may, take longer, depending on the drummer. Make sure it's good, as it can't be changed later. It may have taken longer on another set, but the SE knew his kit, and it went pretty quick.
Now the bass ended up DI into the board, so that was set.
The two guitar amps were put into a isolation room, and mics were put in front of them. We had the two amps back to back, and the two mics up in front of a speaker on each one. I would have done more work on this, but we didn't, so, oh well.
In the live room, we all had headphones on, so we could hear everything.
When we were tracking, the singer would just sing the vocals, no mic, and we'd all play along. The vocals didn't get into the drum mics, so we were fine there.
After initial tracking, we quickly re-tracked any boo-boos, until all was good.
Then we took the amps out of the iso room, and put the singer in there. He then filled in all the vocals cuts, with me and drummer doing occasional backup vocals in the live room.
It went pretty smooth, as none of us are drug or alcohol induced, plus we were already pretty comfortable with studio time.
We did 5 songs, and it took about 2.5 - 3 hours. I won't go on as to how the finished product came out, as it sucked pretty bad, but I don't think the SE did any real mixing, and certainly no pre-mastering.
But I just wanted to let you know how our experience went with the tracking. The mixing and mastering is up to you =).
This may not apply to your setup, but I think there's some items that are similar. I think just the act of you doing recording a few more times, will tell you how you can improve. You'll see ways to improve, and things will work quicker, and smoother. Plus your ear for 'what things will sound like on tape' will improve, making things faster.
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
May 17, 2006 09:25 am Oh yeah, I purchased a samson s-phone headphone amp. It's got lots of headphone outs, plus you can inject separate feed for 'just bass', or 'just vocals', just guitars', etc. into 4 separate channels. Plus 3 hp outs per channel for 12 total. Very flexible.
Was 130 clams from sweetwater. Highly recommended by myself.
Hmm, maybe i'll write a review.
May 17, 2006 09:31 am lol good points indeed carb, (i lived in Adrian MI for quite some time)....
i've found the best way to run a session is to plan ahead atleast one day, with everyone involved with the project....some bands (tight ones espicaily) may want to record the whole song at once, this is the EASIEST way to do it, when talkin' about how much 'work' YOU need to do....if you go this route, headphones may not be necessary for everyone involved....if possible have the lead singer lay down a 'scratch' vocal track, i've heard several times "is this the 3 verse or second?".....this slows down sessions.
if you choose to track instruments individually, i like to start with drums, have the whole band play along (and sing) but just mic up the drums, try to get everyone else direct to minimize bleed. their tone isn't important now, next i like to lay down bass, this provides a solid foundation by forcing the bass player to focus on the drum tracks, as they are the only KEEPER track gooin'. guitars and keys, or whatever, are next, then vocals last....
this kinda project can take alot more time to do....sometimes months or even over a year. by then the band has all bought new gear, the back up guitarist has left the band, and all new songs have been written, trust me, it HAS happened! but i digress...
if you're dooin' it this way, a good headphone mix is essential, it's best to run an aux so you can hear your mix in your monitors differently than the person that's tracking....80% of their performance is affected by what they hear in the cans, the better mix they have, the better they play.
don't planing on tracking everything for everyone on the same day...unless it's one song, things hardly ever go that smooth, you need to be able to troubbleshoot quickly, and be prepaired to accomadate the bands needs.....you'd be surprised how many times i've been momentarily stumped by someone asking me to do somethin' spicific.
also it's your job to keep the vibe positive, musicians when tracking, can get emotional fast, there's a bit of pressure on everyone and when others critique it's hard to not make it personal...try to get the best out of everybody...
make sure they leave every day, in good spirits about the experiance, even if things don't go smoothe, i always discuss what we can do next session to make sure things get done.
stock up on bottled water, make sure the band practices atleast three days in a row before showing up, plan on lunch/dinner/snacks, have their instruments, espically drums IN TUNE all the time, even if it's between every song, retune often. more distortion dosn't mean heavier.
cheers mate
wyd
May 17, 2006 11:09 am Quote:
also it's your job to keep the vibe positive, musicians when tracking, can get emotional fast, there's a bit of pressure on everyone and when others critique it's hard to not make it personal...try to get the best out of everybody...
When people get emotional in my studio, I rip a giant piece of foam off the wall, wrap the culprit up in it, duct tape it closed, and chuck them on the lawn. Ask the lead singer of punk band I recorded. She won't be trying that again.
Then we all went and jammed some acoustic tunes out on the grass because we were way ahead of schedule.
Good point though wyd.
Also, adding to wyds planning ahead; Learn your band (members. no. of drums, instruments etc.) and have H/P's labelled and set out, mics cabled and on stands ready to shoot up, set up a template in your recording app for drums and scratch tracks at least.
If you want more, just ask :-).
Josh RoseJR ProductionsMember
Since: Mar 03, 2005
May 17, 2006 11:13 am Thanks for the replies everyone. cabonic and hue, those are some great points and ideas. I seem to be having the same sort of problem with the band that came last week. They get there an hour late and they were only schedualed for 6 hours. So with 5 hours left they begin tracking and the first song goes fairly smoothly. So we finish it and then into the second song they begin arguing about what each person is supposed to play AFTER i told them numerous times over the phone to make sure you practice everything to perfection.
They came into the studio expecting to get 5 songs completly recorded and mixed in 6 hours. I guess talking more about it with them would have helped there.
pjk,. that headphone amp looks awesome i suppose i might save up the extra cash and get one of those.
Wyd, thanks for the words. It seems like a lot of bands these days seem to use way tooo much distortion and it just sounds like a pile of crap.
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
May 17, 2006 11:27 am Something I've been pondering;
it seems that there's different levels of what the engineer can do after the tracking.
1. I can really quickly set the levels, so they're decent, and the tracks play well with each other (level-wise).
2. I can set the levels, but also go through each part, and set volume envelopes for different parts. This takes more time, and more effort, so $$$ goes up.
3. I can set levels, vol env, but now also go through and work the EQ of each track, making space for each other, and moreso, makeing the tracks play nicer with each other.
4. set levels, vol env, eq-craft, but now go in and fix problem spots. This can take a lot of time, if the band is not super-tight. Showing a prospect this option could greatly improve the prospective band's playing on studio day.
5. All the above 1 thru 4, but now add mastering to the mix. This may be an automatic, but some people may like to do it with someone else.
Maybe charge a different fee for mastering, keep it separate from tracking / mixing.
---------------------------------------------
Each one of these options will be more time, and more money. I don't have any set ideas of what they would be, but it may be worth presenting these options to bands, to better prepare them for what you are expecting to do, what they are expecting you to do, and what gets paid for.
I've been thinking of this, because I can see some group coming in, tracking for 2 days, and then expecting a wonderfully mastered masterpiece one day later. If I have to do the stuff involved above, it could take weeks, and cost lots more than the tracking.
Also, I've been thinking about putting up a mandetory deposit, of, say 200$ or so. THis should cover any possible minor damage, or recoup time if someone doesn't pay.
Just thinking out loud, anybody care to comment?
I'd love to get anyone's opinions on these ideas.
HuePinnipedal Czar (: 3= Member
Since: Apr 11, 2004
May 17, 2006 11:47 am I knew there'd be some gems of info thrown at this one !
pjk- That does sound like a sweet headphone amp ! The Rolls I've been using for the last three years does have a sub-input, which works well for the same reasons, but man is it noisy ! Looking foward to that review .
Chris- Word . Alot of good points there... you can tell you have done this many, many, times .
Quote:
more distortion dosn't mean heavier.
This can be a hard lesson for some to learn, let alone teach one who is challenging the fact . Any suggestions on how to go about it, along with the managing of any other such 'arguments' ?
Another one I thought to mention, would be to have everybody on the same page as far as what your limitations are... both with reguards to your studio, their equipment, their $$$, as well as everybodys skill level . If they've heard samples of your work that should cover your end enough, but if a band who usually sounds incredible(to themselves) 'live' finds themselves under the microscope of tape sounding somewhat different with the same gear, things could get weird if they don't understand how this can happen . Also, the 'lil conditions that can change things drastically, but can be overlooked... things like new strings on the acoustic over-ringing, having a supply of the 'right' pics/sticks laying around, something to occupy the wandering mind while they patiently and quietly wait for their compadres to get 'er done .
Quote:
Maybe charge a different fee for mastering, keep it separate from tracking / mixing.
Yes... and premastering will also make things take longer, and longer means more expense to the band . Keep them clear on what they are paying for... have an invoice if possible .
May 17, 2006 12:18 pm hmmm as for arguing, the best way i've found is to draw it out on paper, draw a saw wave (vvvvvv) and explain how those points aka transients represent the undistorted guitar, distortion (more or less) turns it into what looks more like square waves, to much 'squarness' makes the speakers literally stop&hold at their excersion points, the result is less movement in the speakers, and a smaller sound....keep the preamp gain lower than normal, and (if ya got tube power) crank the master volume until ya get the distortion, the right combonation of the two will get ya where ya wanna go...if using solid state, keep the master up to a pretty 'healthy' level, and crank the gain until it breaks up 'nicely' a good test is you should be able to play open or barre chords with clarity even when the distortion is on. even pantera's 'cowboys from hell' he play's some nice suspended chords with good clarity even though he's got the distortion full on. and also play with the volume on your guitar, back it off a bit for less distortion, then for the 'hot licks' let it go wide open.
if recording direct, DO NOT scoop out the mids, if anything, roll off the highs and lows...i dont' really care for recording guitars direct, so i'm not too keen on makin' 'em sound good
oh overdub alot! and spread 'em out if you can play tight enough. for any given 'distorted' part with two guitar players, i usually have atleast 4 to 8 dist. guitar tracks playin'....METAL!
Josh RoseJR ProductionsMember
Since: Mar 03, 2005
May 17, 2006 04:56 pm I think I may have actually found a nice way to overdub multiple guitar tracks. If you record one clean track and then "reamp" it later to as many different amps as you want, you can get perfectly tight overdubbed guitars.
May 17, 2006 07:58 pm This may be one of the greatest threads ever created here at the HRC Forum ! PJK, HUE, HYD, COLONEL, Josh ... All great pointers. I would like to both recap some of our ideas, and embellish a bit...
#1 Clearly; there are different levels of involvement and excellency that can be obtained when recording. Great point about making it VERY clear to ALL the band members, present, and in person, about expectations of them and you as well as money. Make, don't suggest, that the drummer change ALL his drum heads..especially the snare, and break it in before the session. Have guitar players change strings, or even boil a set like Eddy Van Halen does, and break them it, tune religously every few takes. The negotiations that I just mentioned can be the very framework that allows for intra-band fighting and bad vibes to be resolved quickly, which leads to...
#2 Using valuable psychological skills to manipulate the session into the most efficient form, and for that matter, pulling the greatest performance out of people is KEY to radical recording ..... and don't be affraid to be ring leader.
#3 Do charge for services that are easily differentiated form one another, but don't charge extra for every little last thing. People hate feeling like they're being nickle and dimed to death. I've found, after supplying the Scoobie Snak (quick mix a nd a few burns), after the guys leave, I'll mix till I pass out. It may be wise talk to them and mention that there is a high likelihood that you will have mucho after-hour time into mixing. Charge 'em and don't be affraid to... at least a little at first until you get good and the market can bear your higher prices. A recording studio is not the place to get rich. Trust me on this one. Thats what record companies are for. But I think recording is more fascinating than sueing sleezy bar owners due to breeched contracts. Don't you ?
#4 The headphone mix may possibly be THE MOST important parameter affecting quality tracking. I have a garbage Berhinger Powerplay Pro that doesn't have nearly enough gain...So I kill two birds with one stone by running the mix through a RackRider EQ-151X2 Graphic EQ which boosts the signal, and allows me to EQ the mix differently for each player, and that in itself has major influence on; the quality or performance, the amount of takes necessary, the patience of said band mambers, and ultimately the value they place on your services. FYI, I'm a business major.
#5 Food, Iced Tea, Sushi (love it), fruit, Sexy Swedish Massage Chicks, well, you get the point. Always keeps people going.
#6 Like HWD said above, gain structure is a PRIMAL subject to achieve a high level of competence with ... Be it a guitar sound, scratch mixer, or setting up for tracking, It all applies. I believe that recording should be learned in graduating steps. i.e. Why learn to mix if your tracking bites ?!? Some of the best recordings I've done are 3 mics in a a room and a little compression added after editing.. Thats IT !
#7 Learn to be efficient. Whoever mentioned making templates for your recording platform software is right on! I have 2 for bands, 2 for hip hop, and one for mastering. Even make some for your plug-in FX. This way, you aren't wasting their time and money setting up track channels, routing, and FX. That will dazzle them and help you create a signature sound technique. I once read a few chapters in an incredible book called Lean Thinking. Its about banishing waste in companies. They mention that when, in the case of recording music lets say, one is faced with the task of producing a few items, like mixing 2-3 songs, a good approach may be to entirely complete each song before moving on to the next. But, when faced with mixing 5-12 songs, doing a more assembly line approach is most efficient. i.e. edit all songs 1st, pan & EQ all songs 2nd, compress 3rd., verb all songs 4th etc. etc.
#8 Finally, learn to trace the signal path from its most basic element, right through to the end. 1st most imortant thing is the source making the sound, 2nd the mic, 3rd the room, 4th the dynamic intensity (levels), 5th medium/method of print, 6th editing, 7th mix placement, 8th extended affect of listening to repetitively (can the listener bear multiple plays of song all day so our subliminal messages and mind control brainwash society better?) You get the point.
May 17, 2006 08:17 pm Quote:
This may be one of the greatest threads ever created here at the HRC Forum
Well, then somebody should recommend it...
done...
May 17, 2006 08:46 pm PJK, I quite like the deposit idea.
I charge $25/hr for tracking and 15 for mixing and mastering. Also, dragonorchid and I have implemented a 'bad timing' fee of $100 for correcting bad timimg obviously.
I usually charge one fee upfront that includes 2 days of tracking and as many hours ours of mixing and mastering as it takes in my own time. I then post mixes up on the web for bands to download and comment.
I'll write this all down in an invoice waaay before the recordings start, and try to rustle up as many bands as possible. When the bands do finally come to the studio, we both sign the invoice for business sake.
Just a few ideas there.
Josh RoseJR ProductionsMember
Since: Mar 03, 2005
May 18, 2006 07:47 am Oh heres another question. What if the band wants to sit in with you while your mixing? Charge extra? Simply say no and that if they need to change something once its done than thats alright?
HuePinnipedal Czar (: 3= Member
Since: Apr 11, 2004
May 18, 2006 09:08 am Many, many good points here !
I had a mechanic that had a sign in his shop that read:
Hourly Rate :
50$/hr to work on your car, and fix the problem .
60$/hr to work on your car if you have worked on it already for the same problem .
70$/hr to work on your car, with you watching .
Of course this is just a joke .
Whatever you decide, make it universal . ie... Don't say one band is ok to have around to mix with, and another is not . Either have an open door poicy, or don't... and if you do, I wouldn't charge extra just to watch things progress . Take into consideration the value of having someone that's a paying client watching you make their baby really sing, and witnessing the effort involved . Then again, if it's a wrestling match with a bunch of tracks of nasty-nastyness, well... maybe you wouldn't want them to hear you yelling at the screen . : p
I'd say it's a pretty personal desicion .
pjkPrince CZAR-mingMember
Since: Apr 08, 2004
May 18, 2006 11:46 am At times, I've been very verbose when I'm working, so that could come into play when mixing.
i.e. i can explain what I'm doing each and every step along the way, kinda like "i'm looking for a good relationship between the bass and kick right here", or something similar.
Conversely,
I'd think that the client will get bored of watching me listen to the same part over and over again, and probably give up and leave.
Ah well, all the better.
as long as I'm getting paid by the hour, i'll let them listen to me think out loud. If they don't like it, they can always leave, and I'll work quicker. Or, if the don't like the way I'm mixing, then I'll keep their deposit, and their tracks, and let them find the door =).
Also a good point, Hue, is the one about having a paying client watch you work, can really improve your reputation. If they're impressed with your work ethic, and direction, then they'll tell two friends, and they'll tell two friends, and so on.
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Seeing as how we're airing out the closet . . .
what do you guys that are charging do for the 'friend' aspect. I'm sure all of us have a few friends that you don't want to charge, but it seems that there's a circle of people that could be charged, but you'd feel like a heel doing it.
Course, I guess this applies to my situation more, being out in the sticks. I guess if you're in a metro area, then there can be more clients that you don't mind charging.
May 18, 2006 01:06 pm hmmm i do either free or full price, friends stuff (usually a fun project) doesn't really count as 'work'...unless they plan on sellin' 'em......so i donno, my studio brings all the friends at large, i could teach 'em, but i'd hafta charge.
HuePinnipedal Czar (: 3= Member
Since: Apr 11, 2004
May 18, 2006 01:12 pm heh heh Friends . Well, the way I see it is if they're your friend and play music, you're prolly going to be really interested in doing it . You're not going to be shy about branching out with the piece, taking chances and learning new things along the way . Also, being a friend of yours and all, you probably really like their work, and thoroughly understand the real and true gratitude that helping them along with their artform will produce . The statement "That's what friends are for ." kind'a somes this one up for me .
Edit: idotic comment about 'friends' removed .
jetgloMember
Since: Jul 23, 2004
Jun 02, 2006 03:58 pm One aspect of studio recording that has always buggeed me is the fact that in my experience.. I have gone in to a studio then set up where the engineer has pre-decided I would be (usually based on headphone or DI placement... when for months in practice the band is in a particular constellation, and that tradition is broken for a few hours of expensive studio time. I personally feel that if I had my own commercial studio, I would ask a band to draw out a map of their practice placement to get the most effective and efficient use of their time and the best possibility of good work out of them.. down to the foot if possible. As a bassist I like to be on the floor tom side of a drummer.. but I know others that prefer to be on the hi-hat side. When it comes to a comfortable recording, this is so important. But usually the studio setup has been setup a certain way without regard to this important aspect of capturing the magic.
