PODxt tone crafting. Can you help, Noize? (or anyone!)

> > > PODxt tone crafting. Can you help, Noize? (or anyone!)

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Member Since: Dec 23, 2005

Just got the PODxt! Love the rhythms, but cannot get a good lead tone at all.

As some of you know, I like melodic power metal, like Blind Guardian and Savage Circus- thus, I've been trying for days and days to craft a tone similar to them. But, no such luck.

So I was wondering if those of you with a good ear, and a PODxt, could lend me a hand in creating this tone. Here's a sample that Matt Moliti did, which is a perfect example of the "Blind Guardian sound" I'm talking about. It is the wah that gives it that folkish type sound, but I was wondering about the general tone of the first part. What amp/cab/effects should I use?

www.curufin.com/music/andresample.mp3

Or, to hear it in a more applied scene, here is Thomen's website, with a streaming clip of the Savage Circus single, "Evil Eyes." This is exactly the tone I want!

www.thomen.de/

Thanks everyone. I hope to hear from someone!


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[email protected]
Member
Since: Sep 09, 2004

Apr 11, 2006 10:25 am

DrizzT:
First thing's first...have you downloaded the update to the firmware yet? That is imperitive in order to get the best sound out of your PODxt? Also, have you considered purchasing the 3 additional model packs that you can download? This too, will help maximize all the possible sounds you can get.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002

Apr 11, 2006 10:30 am

Oh, man, the model packs are awesome...but even the stock sounds are very good. For hard rock I like the Rectifier model, or even a compressed "Line 6 Insane"...I like the greenback speakers personal, if I recall correctly there are 20's and 25's and the 20's sound much better (I might be getting models confused though). The Soldano model is pretty nice too...

Member
Since: Dec 23, 2005

Apr 11, 2006 03:45 pm

Yup everything is up to date. I do not have any of the model packs yet though, as I wanted to see how far I could get with the original stock ones. If I were to get any, I'd be getting the metal shop pack, since Andre Olbrich is known to use Engl amps, and I believe they have something like that in there.

So what are your thoughts on that sound in those clips? I've mixed and matched so many amps and cabs and effects but haven't had much luck getting that creamy, smooth, folkish sound.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Apr 11, 2006 09:44 pm

First off, what guitar are you using? And what type of pickups are in it? This will help get you closer to what you want for tone.

Sounds to me like he is using a 4 voice chorus, mild to mid settings for that. Lots of mid and high in that tone as well.

I would start with the Treadplate (Triple rectifier) with a medium gain setting, no presence. It doesnt sound like he is using a lot of bottom end, or at least the streaming clip makes it sound that way.

Use a 4 x 12 cab and lots of room or air, whatever you want to call it.

How you set your chorus is going to really make or break the tone you are looking for. There are tons of overtones in there and the chorus is what is helping create what you hear.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Apr 11, 2006 09:56 pm

Oh crap, having re-read dB's reply, I completely forgot about the Soldano model. I use that one the highest percentage of the time. But I am looking for a fuller tone as well. Not so much in the high end as in the samples. Definately give that one a try as well.

Member
Since: Dec 23, 2005

Apr 11, 2006 10:40 pm

Thanks for helping guys :)

Okay for starters, I just bought the metal shop- so I now have all the goodies.

Secondly, regarding the clip, the second part is just a bunch of dubbing with diatonic thirds and fifths added on, as well as an octave for each.
So it is the sound of the first little jig, without the harmony, that I'm looking to nail (as you need to have a really good lead tone to get a nice fluffy harmony like he did.)

Third, I managed to get in touch with the guy who did it, and he said the following:

"I'm pretty sure that "andre" clip was just with the bridge pickup. I use a Line6 HD147 head going direct into my audio interface. I might have put some delay on, I can't really remember [yea there is delay]. No distortion pedal, just whats from the amp. I forget exactly where my tone controls for the amp are set, but I know I like to set the treble and presence high, the mids about medium, and dial in the bass just enough so that theres some bottom to the tone, but its not muddy.

Pickups definitely have a lot to do with your guitar's tone. What kind of pickups do you have in your guitar?"

So, to answer him and you Noize, I have crap-*** stock pickups in an ibanez rg170r. So if I'm upgrading, what would you suggest (that is affordable too)?

And I know that Andre Olbrich (the guy I'm trying to immitate, who this guy in the clip immitated) uses ENGL amps, so would this "MS Angel P Ball" be something to consider?

Do you guys have any good lead patches I could work off of, that don't consist of a lot of reverb or chorus? Only my rhythms are sounding good...

Member
Since: Dec 23, 2005

Apr 12, 2006 12:01 am

I tried the triple rectifier, which is the diamond plate, and tried the green 20 cab. Here's a clip.
Warning: It is horrible.

I stopped half way through the recording and repeated a note. Hear that buzzy sound? Not very Andre-ish :(

www.soundclick.com/bands/...m?bandID=481743

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002

Apr 12, 2006 08:13 am

try the 25's...I forget which one I like better not sitting in front of the unit, but there is a huge difference between the 20 and 25 greenbacks. Also, make sure you use the SM57 off axis, it's really the only mic model option worth anything in the POD for rock/metal guitar the other models I can't stand unless I am playing clean or a non rock/metal style.

if you upgrade pickups, check out the Q-Tuner (there is a random ad in the column) they are great, I put them in my Washburn A-10 (check the photo gallery in my profile for a pic) and they totally improved the tonal quality of my guitar, which I liked anyway. They are clean, strong and powerful pickups.

Member
Since: Dec 23, 2005

Apr 12, 2006 03:56 pm

Yea I've tried the treadplate, dual tread, and diamonplate with all the 4x12 cabs (and more) but couldn't shake that buzz. As someone I know said, "the stock pickups in the ibanez rg's are crap at best" ... so I think I may have to upgrade sooner than later.

And yes I agree about the 57 off axis. In that clip I had it at about 20%. What is a good distance?

I know that Andre uses EMG 81's for his pickups. Are there any DiMarzios that sound anywhere near as good as that, as price is still an issue. I heard the Dimarzio Evolution set is good, if not better? And what if I only change the bridge pickup? Will the middle and neck stock ones bring down the quality of an upgraded bridge?

And do you guys have any patches I could try, as well as a clip of them in action? It would be the best way to determine just how bad these pickups of mine are.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Apr 12, 2006 09:26 pm

Drizzt, I use the evolutions in my Customized Ibanez. I went through several differant pickups from all the manufacturers and ended up with Evo's in the bridge and neck and a Fast Track II in the middle. All 3 pickups are coil tapped for running full humbucker, parralell and single coil configs.

To be honest, I can get those kind of tones or very close with some of the standard settings on my XT with the DiMarzio's.

I have used EMG 81' and 85's befor and still own a set destined for my Washburn. But they fill a very narrow gap for what I need. As they are very limited to the tone they can produce. But the DiMarzio's are splendid as I can get a very wide variety of tone out of them.

As well, DiMarzio still has their garuantee that if you dont like the tone they will switch them for the price paid for another set to try. And you can keep tryin differant pickups till you find what you need.

And yes, if you intend to only use the bridge pickup then the Dimarzio will not be mucked up by the stock pickups.

String bender
Member
Since: Unknown

Apr 12, 2006 11:50 pm

My setup is close to Noize's, I use an Ibanez RG350 with Evolutions in the bridge and neck with a Chopper in the center. The Chopper is the same design as the Fast track II but not as hot. My stock sounds are pretty close to your clip as well.

Member
Since: Dec 23, 2005

Apr 13, 2006 05:07 am

So in a nutshell, I need some Evolutions :P Alright thanks guys. You're always a big help.

I chose to do the leads for the song I'm working on with one of the Deity Lead(sp?) presets. It is probably the smoothest I've tried thus far, but still not quite what I want (but now I can blame the pickups instead of the POD)

I heard the evo's aren't good with rhythms.. Is this true? (though considering I like the rhythms on my stock pickups, I'll probably like the Evo's rhythms too haha)

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002

Apr 13, 2006 07:48 am

Idle curiousity here, Drizzt, do you use the software interface to design POD sounds or are you just punchin thru the POD interface? If not, download the software and hook the POD up via USB, it makes it much more intuitive to design in.

Member
Since: Dec 23, 2005

Apr 13, 2006 04:03 pm

Yup I use the software. Line6 Edit is amazing, and much easier to handle :)

String bender
Member
Since: Unknown

Apr 13, 2006 06:42 pm

Well I'm not saying that you have to get the evolutions to get the sound you are looking for, thats just another option. I would do some digging around on the line 6 website to see if you can find anything close first. That said, the evo's have a nice full sounding mid-range which is why I think it could help. As for the rhythms, I like these pickups for most of the stuff I work on. They sound much more full than the stock pick-ups I took out of my Ibanez.

Member
Since: Dec 23, 2005

Apr 13, 2006 08:23 pm

Alright cool.

Say, I get this problem with my POD every now and then.. I monitor through some headphones, and what I'm playing it will be very loud, yet apparently is only around the -12 dB mark, so when I play back the recording it is very quiet. The output is relatively low as well, so that if I turn it up to hear the recorded stuff, I'm deafened if I so much as look at my guitar strings.
Any ideas? It happened a while ago, and I can't recall what I did to make it go away... this time it is back again, and turning it on and off didn't do the trick.

Back to the tone situation though... everything I record (in the lead guitar area) sounds muddy. Maybe not muddy, but... as if it is going through one of those speaker phones. It isn't blending in with the rhythms at all. I'll post a clip on my site (link above) to give an idea of what I mean.

Member
Since: Dec 23, 2005

Apr 13, 2006 08:34 pm

Okay put something up. "not blending. muddy"

Here's the link again if you don't want to scroll.
www.soundclick.com/bands/...m?bandID=481743

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Apr 13, 2006 09:58 pm

Drizzt, the Evo's give me very good rythm sounds as well. Even using them in full humbecker mode. Although it is much smmother when I switch em to parallel. If you have a good guitar tech or are pretty savy with guitar wiring I highly recomend doign the coil tap with them. It really will give you many more options when looking for a good tone.

For the level thing, double check to make sure you arent sending any midi data to the POD like all notes off or full reset or anything like that. When control changes are setn via midi they might not be aimed at the POD but end up doing things like truning down the gain, or vomule and such.

Listened to the sample you put up. Honestly I dont think it is really all that bad. On my rig here I can hear the lead part just fine. Granted it isnt exactly what you are looking for but it is closer then you make it sound. I think just spending a little more time tweaking the POD and working some EQ on the recorded track if it is needed will do wonders.

Member
Since: Dec 23, 2005

Apr 13, 2006 10:08 pm

How can I check on this sending of midi data?
Oh and it seems to be clipping at -6 dB if that helps solve anything :/ I can't think of anything I could have done to get this to happen.

Don't you think those leads sound muddy at all? They also seem like they stand out way too much and aren't working together with the rhythm guitars.

EDIT; And just like that, it randomly goes back to normal. *confused*

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Apr 13, 2006 11:44 pm

What software are you using to record with? You should be able to go in and tell it not to send midi data to the midi port the POD is on.

It can effect all kinds of things but it sounds like it is doing a controller reset or something when you hit play or stop.

I will have a look at mine later tommorrow and see if I can pinpoint anything for you.

Noize

Member
Since: Dec 23, 2005

Apr 14, 2006 12:39 am

I'm using Cool Edit, and recording using the USB.

Now I don't know anything about midi ... but why would this be a problem? I don't have anything coming out of the midi in or out jacks on the PODxt?

Bleh, this stuff is beyond my knowledge. Hope you can solve this mystery. Shutting it off seemed to fix it eventually (this has only happened twice though, and I shut it off many times the second time around and it didn't do anything until now)


So what, in terms of EQ, do you think I should do on those leads? More highs and mids? Anything I need to drop? The tone itself has a bit of reverb and chorus (I usually don't add chorus, but I find it works well in taking off some of the edge). It also has a screamer on the stomp.

EDIT: Hah. It is back again..


Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Apr 14, 2006 10:30 pm

OK, well if your using CoolEdit then I dont think the midi thing is a problem as I dont believe CoolEdit has midi.

Is it possible that you arent saving the pathces with the corrected volume settings on the POD, so when you revert back to a patche the volume changes back to low level or something. I know I have done that many times, set the level and forget to save the patche with the new level setting. Then come back and its all bunged up.

If it the playback that is going haywire, then you might look at how it is in CoolEdit once it is recorded. But I dont know how that would relate to the POD itself turning the level up or down.

Anyway, listened to the Somewhere far beyond track and the only thing I notice is that the EQ on the rythm and the lead are very similar. You might change the rythm's EQ just a bit to get the lead more pronounced. Honestly though I would not call the other samle you had up muddy at all as far as the lead part was concerned. I think it is just being percieved as mushed together because the rythm and lead have a similar EQ setting or something.

My moniter system is pretty high end so I would surely hear if it was muddy on the low end side, and none of that has been so far. The chorus thing will work well. I would suggest though to maybe try without any reverb and thicken the chorus up a bit. The chorus itself will give the fullness and body that reverb will, without using any reverb.

Noize

Member
Since: Dec 23, 2005

Apr 15, 2006 02:40 am

Well I did everything on the same guitar, with the same bridge pickup.. though I used different patches for everything, but still ended up having similar EQ. I would have thought recording with different patches would have solved that... but I guess it is the guitar and the pickup that ultimately decides?

I'll try horsing around with the EQ though (I'm not too experienced with that stuff yet).
EDIT: Went and tried lowering the rhythms where the leads were at their peak, and tried to boost the areas overall where it was lacking coverage.. and it didn't turn out so good. The rhythms became very ugly real quick. I think I'm going to let sleeping dogs lie :/
Dealing with EQ has never been one of my strong points. Perhaps simply lowering the rhythms at that area was enough and I could have left it there, but I spent an hour tweaking it and by the end I got so frustrated I just quit. Perhaps tomorrow I'll have another go.
(Do you think it sounds so bad that it desperately needs this EQ adjustment though?)

Are there any references you know of that explain how to change a guitar pickup? I'm afraid to do it, but it has to be done sooner or later. (And gosh I'm sorry for the wide range of questions, but I didn't want to start new threads. They are all under the tone situation though ;) )

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Apr 15, 2006 01:49 pm

Absolutely not. It doesnt sound real bad at all. I found it pretty listenable on my rig to be honest.

Dont be sorry for asking questions at all. That is what HRC is all about. Some questions can be answered quickly, and others take some time to work through. And remeber, someone else may read through this post and get some info that will help them out as well.

And I have to agree, EQ is a very difficult thing to get your head around. Especially if you have not worked with it in an intense fashion.

Keep asking the questions as they come up, that is what we are here for.

Noize

Member
Since: Dec 23, 2005

Apr 15, 2006 04:34 pm

Okay cool! Well regarding the changing of the guitar pickups, I was browsing the net looking for a 'how to' website, and came across the seymour duncan one. He showed how to for a tele strat and a les paul, and it confused me to death. He was soldering and everything!
I thought it was just a simple task of taking the screws out, doing some form of unplugging, and putting in the new ones (I've settled on the evo's).

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002

Apr 15, 2006 04:52 pm

soldering is not that hard...no musician should be without a soldering iron and knowing how to use it...it's second only to duct tape on the must have list...

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Apr 15, 2006 05:16 pm

Quote:
it's second only to duct tape on the must have list...

Very true, soldering is not a difficult task, just a steady hand and watch for the solder to melt well into the wires. Timing is a big part as well, dont get it too hot that you melt stuff. But with most household irons that wont happen real easy.

The little manual that comes with the Evo's will have a good diagram and such. The DiMarzio site has a wiring section as well. I think its in the technical section of the site.

Member
Since: Dec 23, 2005

Apr 15, 2006 06:00 pm

Holy crap this is confusing.

Perhaps I should go to a guitar shop and get a professional to install them. Wonder what the odds are of them letting me watch though :/ And I also wonder how much money they'd charge...
How did you folks learn how to do it? I'm worried about screwing up my guitar so would much rather be taught in person by someone.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Apr 15, 2006 07:22 pm

I learned by trial and error. I made a few mistakes along the way. But I was always into electronics, fixing old radios's with tubes and stuff so it cam natural to me. But once you into the guitar electronics it is reallyy pretty simple to do a pickup. In most cases it is only going to be 2 wires, unless you are going to do the coil tap thing, then it will be 4 or 5.

But indeed, most good music stores have a guitar tech or someone local who they use that will do it. For a pickup install I would say it would run about $50.00 or less. Depending on wether you are doing both or just one pickup as well. Maybe call around and ask who might show you as well.

Administrator
Since: Apr 03, 2002

Apr 15, 2006 07:27 pm

Yeah, for me I have learned pretty much everything by just doing it...never learn if ya don't try...

Member
Since: Dec 23, 2005

Apr 15, 2006 09:08 pm

Hmm.. well I just want to replace the bridge pickup with an evolution, maybe an evo2. It's the determining which wires are which, removing the currently soldered ones, and the actual soldering which worries me. Like how long to press down for, what if you overheat it, etc. Or is overheating when you want to remove the wires?

Watching those seymour duncan videos helped a bit. Seems like a simple matter (in my case) of just finding which wires belong to the bridge pickup, remove them, and solder the wires from the new pickup in. Though, i don't know where I'd get my hands on a heating iron.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Apr 15, 2006 10:18 pm

Radio Shack or the local hardware store will have a small pencil type soldering iron for cheap. As well make sure you get a thin solder. You will not want to be soldering those little wires with a large type solder, get it as thin as you can find. It will melt faster and easier.

Also just make sure to clean the old solder off very well at the point you will make the connections again. This is kind of important as it will aid in getting a good solder joint with the new wires.

Member
Since: Dec 23, 2005

Apr 16, 2006 06:37 pm

Ah okay. Well thanks for all the info- that about does it for my questions! I'll let you know how things turn out.

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002

Apr 16, 2006 07:49 pm

Indeed, let us know for usure how it works out.

If your gonna do it on your own, just take your time and make note of what came off what, and it should be a simple re-solder job and your done.

Just make sure you get the solder joints done well for a good connection. Because a bad solder joint can cause headaches later with static and noise.

> > > PODxt tone crafting. Can you help, Noize? (or anyone!)

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