Apr 10, 2006 05:49 pm Some heads are gonna roll.
gospel of judas
Posted on Apr 10, 2006 05:38 pm
fortymile
Member Since: Jan 18, 2003
anyone see the national geographic special on that? how interesting. whatre your thoughts?
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Apr 10, 2006 05:49 pm Some heads are gonna roll.
Apr 10, 2006 06:00 pm haven't seen, but am dying to...anyone have an airing schedule?
For those that don't know what we are talking about news.nationalgeographic.c...406_gospel.html
Apr 10, 2006 07:06 pm i taped it last night. loved it. the channel should be replaying it often, i would think. you should be able to find out when at the nat geo website
Apr 10, 2006 07:20 pm I'm going to go out and buy it (the text) next week to add to my collection of gnostic texts
Apr 10, 2006 09:18 pm has anyone seen the last temptation of christ? It made Judas out to be Jesus's best friend and sold hime out not for the money but it was his destiny. Very interesting in deed.
Apr 10, 2006 09:43 pm I've long held the belief that if jesus was indeed destined to die at that time, and in that way, then judas should be regarded as a vehicle of the divine will. This kind of goes against standard christianity though, since jesus said "it would be better for you to have never been born..."
Apr 10, 2006 09:45 pm I have always thought of it that way as well, he comes off as the jerk, when in fact we was the fulfiller of a prophecy without whom we would not have been saved.
I always thought Judas got a bum wrap...
Apr 10, 2006 10:37 pm Absolutely agree. Judas was just doing what he was intended to do, Gods will if you care to take it that way.
Over the years he was portrayed as dB pointed out, as a jerk or the bad guy. When indeed, he was just fullfilling the prohecy. No more, no less.
I am curious to see it as well. We get the Nat. channel here and they do repeat things several times over during the week. And the good ones especially on the weekends.
First one I see that is decent time is Thursday at 9:00PM.
Apr 10, 2006 10:47 pm IF I can keep my VCR running that long.
Maybe I'll just drop my ATI back into the old PC and run a video cable in here.
Apr 10, 2006 11:54 pm I don't think I'll be able to see it, but if anyone does tape it and is willing to send me a copy I'll pay for shipping
Apr 11, 2006 06:50 am i watched it a second time tonight. it's so well done. judas comes off as a very interesting, more complex character in this.
i read the gospel itself online the other night. it's interesting in that there's no crucifixion scene. it ends with the act of betrayal, which makes it truly judas' story. the act of betrayal is the centerpiece. it ends very abruptly.
you get some real sympathy for judas in the show. for one thing, the actor in the dramaztized bits is great. and what a great jesus too. he looks middle eastern but still like the traditional western christ.
there's a palpable sense of destiny when the romans are walking up behind jesus in the garden. to know that he knows its part of the plan and is letting it happen.
Apr 11, 2006 07:06 am does that make jesus guilty of suicide?
Apr 11, 2006 04:25 pm Does the show mention when Judas had time to write his gospel? Was he keeping a daily "blog" or did he just write it all at once? He committed suicide soon after the betrayal, which is why the gospel would have ended abruptly and wouldn't have given him much time to write...
A co-worker of mine said that he can't believe the accuracy of this gospel because of translations, etc., however, he believes in the bible. It would seem to me that if you believe that the bible is accurate, you would have to at least allow for the possibility that this is also a true translation.
Apr 11, 2006 04:37 pm yeah, it's almost obvios all of the books are origionally oral traditions atleast for the first generation... I would expect the book of Judas to be a writing from a follower of Judas... I look forward to reading it... and like most apocryphal texts it will at the very least include interesting cultural information from the period it was written.
Apr 12, 2006 02:48 am i think theyre all written by followers. the show says that even the four main gospels were first written at about 60 AD and never even had the names of the disciples associated with them. that the names were added later by editors. the religion has a complex history. it was oral for a long time, like zek says.
i dont think it makes jesus guilty of suicide, were this true. there's a strange fate thing at the heart of this, much like the movie the matrix. but that is a tricky area. could christ have even refused his destiny? is that even possible?
Apr 12, 2006 03:12 am What I want to know is, Why did jesus tell Judas "it would have been better for you to have never been born than to do what you're going to do", or something lake that. Does this mean what it implies, that Judas is not supposed to betray christ at that time? Or was he referring to Judas commiting suicide? I know that the catholic church regards that as a sin which cannot be repented. But lets say that Jesus was telling Judas that because of the betrayal. If it is so horrible, why then did the event follow that course of action? The easy answer is that while that may not have been gods plan he went along with it, as illustrated by jesus clearly not wanting to go through with it. I don't know, this issue bothers me. It also bothers me how christianity focuses so much attention on the death of christ and pretty much puts his teachings while alive on theb ackburner. Oh well.
Apr 12, 2006 06:45 am Quote:
I know that the catholic church regards that as a sin which cannot be repented.
Hard to repents when your dead...but I know what you mean, I was always told suicide is one of the unforgivable sins, but then, later I read "a sin is a sin in the eyes of the large", none greater or lesser than the others...so, WTF? I never remember reading for myself anything in any holy text that says suicide is unforgivable, just told that by pastors or other "scholars", so, well, I don't believe that.
The only reference I have ever read regarding an unforgivable sin was spoken by Jesus referring to people that speak against God. You bash on God, that is unforgivable, nothing about suicide, that doctrine, or assumption, has been fabricated by man, which is the exact point where religion starts going wrong, as soon as man starts putting in their own rules.
Apr 12, 2006 08:53 am Not to go too far off of topic, but suicde is a perfectly natural decision to arrive at... it occours when ones 'pain' outweighs ones rescorces for dealing with that 'pain'... whatever that pain may be . All part of the natural selection process . We can believe what we want towards it, but really, it's not something one can simply ponder... when that situation occours, the act presents itself in all its terrible finality, as being what's required .
Just speculating here, but perhaps Jesus was refering to that part of man that Judas represents when he said that ? "Micro-man" . A path that, biblically, humans headed down starting with the events in the Garden .
Apr 12, 2006 08:57 am Suicide is an unnatural, stupid, and very selfish conclusion to arrive at. I find it hard not to sympathise with people that have terminal illnesses and such, but the stupid people that kill themselves because their girl friend dumped them, or they lost their job or things like that just piss me off at the pain they bring on people around them.
When I was growing up I had pain, but I can say suicide was never a thought, I had a couple friends that mentioned to me after something happened to them they thought suicide was a logical way out, I presume, in hindsite looking for attention or sympathy, my immediate reaction was generally to laugh and tell them how stupid that was...looking back, that may not have been the best course of action for me to take.
Apr 12, 2006 09:52 am That's excellent dB . You're a strong, healthy person, and that is the conclusion you should come to . It's not really something that a person in your possition should/would consider as anything less than selfish/insane .
Quote:
We can believe what we want towards it, but really, it's not something one can simply ponder... when that situation occours, the act presents itself in all its terrible finality, as being what's required .
God forbid a healthy, and sane person such as yourself ever finds himself in a possition that would warrent such terrible consequences . I too am a 'die with your boots on' kind'a guy... I just don't think it's right to harshly judge that which I hope I will never understand .
Apr 12, 2006 10:12 am What I mean is that when people who are in that possition force those around them to contemplate the act, the results are confusing, as well as devistating . Any healthy, compassionate person feels a sense of utter confoundment reguarding the subject... and rightly so... it's a terrible thing that should be impossible to comprehend by a healthy mind .
Apr 12, 2006 10:15 am Quote:
God forbid a healthy, and sane person such as yourself ever finds himself in a possition that would warrent such terrible consequences.
I know people that would debate your opinion on my mental well-being...
Apr 12, 2006 10:18 am Well, y'a can't be too far out'a whack if you think that suicide is simply not an option .
Edit: Great ! Now I'm gon'na have that Iron Maiden song in my head all day ! lol
Apr 12, 2006 04:56 pm Should there be considered any measureable difference between suicide, and martyrdom ?
Should the 'desicion-factor' have any wieght to it at all ?
I never really thought of events involved with JCs self-sacrifice as a suicide, if anything more-so of a murder being carried out . Though I guess since he was completely aware of his fate and able to avoid it and still chose not to, then 'technically' it is just that . Hmmm...
Apr 12, 2006 07:31 pm dB - I agree that nowhere in the text does it say that suicide is unforgivable. I see the logic that "it's hard to repent when dead" but also call it bunk because as the text tells us we are not just his physical body... But that's getting into deep metaphysics, which I'll leave alone for now.
I've never really thought about the crucifiction as suicide before, mainly because I've spent a lot of my life being a robot. However now that the thought is in my head and re-reading the text it does seem like a sound theory. Where does that leave us though?
Bottem line for me, is I don't really think the Gospel will do much to change anyones minds or convince them, much as how the Nag Hammadi Library was only of interest to scholars and Gnostics, and the Book of Enoch is still relativly unknown by most of the christians I know. I don't think this gospel will change much in organized christianity.
Apr 12, 2006 10:22 pm suicide is actually pretty natural.
doesnt mean its good, but it comes with the territory of having a thinking mind. we're not like animals. we cant just run away into the woods to avoid our problems. suicide is mostly a human thing. i dont know of any studies of other creatures that do that sort of thing, but i know nothing about that.
those people that kill themselves because of girlfriends or jobs or something: there are all types of suicides, i guess. i have never understood impulsive financial suicide. people who all their money and then jump off a building.
but shame? when something youve done is exposed so that your public image is basically shattered? its got to be like dying. it must be very confusing. you can no longer be who you were, and it must be overwhelming.
beyond that, even, most suicides are related to deep depressions, and people should respect that, because its very serious. people who kill themselves as a result of something like that are simply in a different place mentally. very few people know what its like to suffer a psychotic depression. they imagine it as 'a case of the blues.' real depression is so far away from that that i cant even beging to explain how. it is something a normal has no way to imagine. you lose, in a very real way, your mind, all your emotions, everything. and it truly seems that none of it is ever coming back.
Apr 13, 2006 10:04 am Well said fortymile .
The only time I seriously 'ran into' the option was at a time when I had lost all hope whatsoever of having a life without pain . They called it 'trigeminal neuralgia of the fifth-cranial nerve' . The pain in my head made a migraine seem like kid-stuff, and it lasted for months... 24 hrs a day non-stop, with the strongest pain-killers having little to no effect . It was all I could do to keep my sanity, and not submit to that which seemed to be the 'only' way away from the pain . I remained like a rabid animal hidden away in a dark room, until I found the help I needed in the form of an operation .
When you're in 'that place', it is as fortymile said, very far away from anything normal . A dream-state, comparitively . A psychotic-depression will have you thinking thoughts that no healthy mind would seriously entertain .
The whole ordeal did raise my pain-threshold quite a bit, but I can't say that even though I am in a healthy state of mind right now, if there won't be a day when I find myself in the grips of that terrible place again... it does exist, and it can take the most sound-minded person, and empty them of their sanity .
Jesus was on a mission . I'm not christian, but I can understand and respect that . I don't think I can, within my own mind-set, classify his actions as a suicide... as it was not by his own hand, and wouldn't have been feasible if it weren't for the dark capacity of mankind .
Apr 13, 2006 10:08 am Yeah, I can appreciate your sentiment there forty regarding depression, not the over diagnosed generic depression that doctors throw drugs at, but the serious, chemically imbalanced mind, that's a scary place...
But regarding somebody who is shamed as a direct result of something f'in stupid they did is a *******...I have little sympathy except for any innocent bystanders that may be harmed such as spouses, parents, children, etc...
Apr 13, 2006 10:38 am Yeah dB, if your life turns out to be a joke, you should have the cahones to be able to laugh at it .
Who was that congressman/official-guy that got caught doing something naughty that held a press-conference, and then proceeded to pull a gun out of a manilla envelope, and blow his brains out on national TV ? What an ***... and yeah, his poor family . Terribly selfish .
Apr 13, 2006 01:58 pm i saw that footage on Death Scenes 2, that immage has haunted me for years....
Apr 13, 2006 02:43 pm agree with db and hue, aye. cajones to laugh at your own **** ups: if you cant, youve been taking yourself too seriously and your values are in the wrong place.
i wonder about peeps in other countries, though. countries where you can be shamed more easily than here. japan and stuff. where the values are different and your identity and self-worth is so much more tied to accomplishment.
Apr 13, 2006 02:47 pm Quote:
i wonder about peeps in other countries, though. countries where you can be shamed more easily than here. japan and stuff. where the values are different and your identity and self-worth is so much more tied to accomplishment.
Yeah, thats a good point...there are some VERY different cultures...of course there is always the guy that crossed his crime boss or something, odds are taking himself out would be a lot less painful then what the boss would do...
Apr 13, 2006 02:51 pm Which brings us back to Judas and what he meant when he said...
"Living after midnight, rockin to the dawn
Lovin' 'til the morning, then I'm gone, I'm gone"
..Oh wait a minute, that doesn't apply here at all.
Carry on.
Apr 13, 2006 02:53 pm ...of course this conversation absolutely couldn't have been complete without a Judas Priest reference, kudo's shepherdsam...
Apr 13, 2006 03:10 pm Yeah, that was great !!!
Nice timing !
Apr 13, 2006 04:18 pm Don't tell me you guys all missed the first reply on this thread!
Apr 13, 2006 04:21 pm who here has seen jesus christ, superstar? thats one of the only musicals i really enjoy. judas KICKS *** in that. what a performance. what a singer. i like the rock aspect of the bible story. i dont know know why the early editors of the official gospels edited those parts out. prudes.
like the this part (original):
And judas mounted the rock and screameth "say not i am damned for all time, for i cameth not of my own accord."
the apostles in reply breaketh out into a bluesy motif. "what be-eth the hearsay; provide unto us the account."
john 18 and a half:10-11
Apr 13, 2006 04:27 pm 2-cents...
2. Suicide. A permanent solution to a temporary problem. I have compassion for those who find themselves in such dispair, but it is a bit selfish. No...it's a lot selfish.
1. Gospel of Judas. The main thing that I was astounded by from this program (watch it, it's fabulous) was the final "little chat" that Jesus, and Judas were supposed to have had. There was a scene where Jesus approaches the table as the disciples are praying before a meal, and laughs at them for praying to the (and I'm paraprasing here, not a direct quote) "God who created the Earth, and not the true God." He then, in his chat with Judas, away from the others, basically tells Judas that he's the only one who really gets the whole thing. Like the others are trying very hard, but not really getting the big picture. He says that "God" is a concept beyond anything that can be properly understood by men, and not something that can be personified, or imagined. I really liked that. Although I am not someone who belives in the existence of deities, I am drawn to this description. If "God" is something way beyond what has been described over the centuries, by any of the religions, that is just too much for our little minds to deal with, I'm all for that one. My biggest problem has always been with all the churches/religions making "God" their own, and dressing "him" up in their clothes. "This is what God likes/doesn't like", "this is what he looks like", "this is what he said" etc. If the concept of God really is much larger than we can comprehend, then all of that other stuff really quite goes out of the window. The teachings of the great men in history, from Jesus, to Ghandi, to John Lennon, to Mohammed, to Teddy Roosevelt to whoever, are all very valid, and have some great points. We, on the whole, just tend to polarize things too much. There's a bigger picture.
Anyway, that's what I took away from the Gospel of Judas program. Made me go "Hmmmmm."
3. THE BURDEN OF SIN
ECHOES THE PROPHECY
ASCENDING FROM HELL
FOREVER DESPISING
JUDAS IS RISING - Rob Halford
(Remember when he "came out" and everyone said, "Really?".......)
Apr 13, 2006 04:54 pm "The knowledge of man is folly unto God" - Bible
I have no idea where in the Bible it says that, but that is it's source .
It can be very frustrating being a dumb 'animal', with an ego...
"To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that God created most men simply with a view to crowding hell" -Marquis De Sade
and...
"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind" - Marquis De Sade
Apr 13, 2006 05:05 pm i liked that notion too, where jesus says god is beyond what the other apostles are thinking. of course, that's not an uncommon idea in the world. the gnostics were mystics, and had a lot in common with eastern religions. i know why the one pope way back then made this whole gospel heretical. it runs counter to the western view of religion, utterly.
but i like it. it could serve as a doorway into christianity for people who just dont buy certain things. it leads neatly into the idea of bible as metaphor, actually.
Apr 13, 2006 05:43 pm Please don't take offense, Fortymile, but I really hope that it doesn't serve as a "doorway to Christianity." I hope it serves as a doorway to deeper understanding, and spirituality; but to point people only towards one faith, or book is exactly the polarization I was talking about before. There's a lot of truth out there, and it's not all in the Bible. There's some great stuff in the Bible, but there's other stuff too.
When the big "About God" thread was going on recently, someone (sorry, I didn't go back and check) said they were concerned that I'd not read the New Testament enough. My biggest concern is that they have not read anything else!
By the way, and this is just being pedantic, it wasn't a pope who said the Gospel of Judas was heretical, it was a Bishop.
This ties into the book (the Bible) not being the "Word of GOD", but being simply the word of man.
Apr 14, 2006 12:22 am tallchap, im not christian. im a darwininan fundamentalist, armchair complexity theorist, and joseph-campbellian.
i dont know why i used that phrase. what i was trying to imply (and failing at, miserably) is that there's a way to take all the findings of science at face value and accept them as absolutely true while still being a christian, if you want to be. this proposition angers many people who consider themselves to be devout christians.
but for instance, intelligent design: you say 'ok, evolution is real, but god designed evolution as well as the constants of nature.'
or 'the big bang or something similiar happened, but it was god's handiwork.'
i believe in a god, in a sense, though i dont know what it is. it has no name to me. what i always see is that there's ultimately a mystery at the heart of existence which cant be explained away. what i try to do is to respect that mystery by taking scientific findings at face value. everytime you do, the mystery not only persists, but deepens.
sometimes i find myself thinking that peeps who reject the findings of science are in a way blaspheming god. because all of this could be seen as 'gods' creation, and the evidence is all before us, and our minds are very good at figuring the evidence out. almost as if it's our very 'purpose.'
to me respecting science IS respecting god.
anyway, this whole judas line about god being above and beyond what the other apostles are thinking--unnameable--kind of points directly to this perspective. it is almost an invitation to see the bible as metaphor, which in my mind actually 'rescues' it in a certain sense.
do you know what i mean? not in a literal sense. but to me, god is a question, not an answer. the western religions really bother me in that they attempt to 'freeze' god into unnatural, perpetual definitions and likenesses. the door to mystery seems closed in the west, and these religions strike me as fundamentally anti-life. it seems to me that the gospel of judas puts its foot in that closing door and says 'but wait a second...'
Apr 14, 2006 10:29 am Nicely put, Forty!
Especially the part about God being a question, rather than an answer.
I think a respect for all things, and a sense of wonder is the key to happiness. My concern is that some will close themselves off from many valid, and wonderful opportunities for spiritual, and intellectual advancement by wrapping themselves too tight in their particular beliefs.
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