Metal (death Metal) guitar sound!!!

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Death Metal Freak!!!
Member Since: Feb 05, 2006

I have tried everything to get a good death metal sound recorded into my computer and I just can not get it right. I have tried, more distortion, less distortion, more mids, less mids, less lows, more lows and so on.

I am running two mics to my Marshall MG Series 250DFX and then into my Behringer Eurorack UB802 Mixer. I have tried EQing it with the mixer as well as leaving the mixer "flat" and recording and then EQing with the software.

I need some help from a few that are willing to keep helping till I can get it. Maybe some metal heads out there that have been doing this for a while and are will to help out. PLEASE!!!!!

ControledChaos....where are you??? I need help!!!

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Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Feb 22, 2006 11:03 pm

Hang tight buddy, it'll all be good soon.

Anyway, what mic's are you using? That might help get it started before CC gets here.

Death Metal Freak!!!
Member
Since: Feb 05, 2006


Feb 22, 2006 11:20 pm

Here is everything I am using:

Jackson DKGMT Kinky w/EMG
Marshall MG Series 250DFX
Boss MT-2 Metal Zone Pedal
Boss NS-2 Noise Suppressor Pedal
Boss CS-3 Compression Sustainer Pedal
Boss GE-7 Equalizer Pedal
Boss TU-2 Chromatic Tuner

2 Behringer XM8500 Microphones
Behringer Eurorack UB802 Mixer
Acoustica Mixcraft Recording Software
Acoustica Beatcraft Drum Machine Software

If you like I can record a minute or so of what I am getting and upload it tomorrow. Maybe then you could give more feedback.

I don't want to make drastic changes, I have been trying to make small changes here and there but it does not seem to be working.

Any help would be great, thank you...

Member
Since: Jan 08, 2004


Feb 23, 2006 12:29 am

Are you using any effects or are you going straight to the amp? If you look at the bands you like and see what they do when recording is a good place to start. What bands are you trying to emulate? I've never had any luck getting good sounds with a metal zone pedal.Have you tried going straight into your marshall? Are you using the mic off axis towards the cone of the speaker? Is your sound too brittle or too muddy/boomy?

Answer:On a good day, lipstick.
Member
Since: Jun 24, 2004


Feb 23, 2006 10:59 am

Is there a direct out on your Marshall? Try using that instead of mics. You can add a bit of "cabinet" via VST. A lot of the time, the manual that comes with your pedal has some ideas for settings that might help you cut through a bit. Also, many manufacturers/products have dedicated forums, and settings/patch postings. I edited a bunch into my Digitech RP80 last night that I'd pulled from a forum. Great sounds, and very useful for recording. Sometimes having too much stuff between the "tape" and the fingers can suck some of the life out of things. Try stripping down your set-up, and starting as simply as possible. Then add a little at a time until you get to where you want to be.

Death Metal Freak!!!
Member
Since: Feb 05, 2006


Feb 23, 2006 12:04 pm

I have post three guitar tracks here: www.soundclick.com/bands/...m?bandID=481840

If anyone is willing to take a listen and give some feedback that would be great. The three guitar tracks were recorded with one mic into my mixer. I lowered the Lo on the mixer a bit as I was getting allot of low end. I did NOT EQ the guitar tracks at all. Any and all advie would be great.

Death Metal Freak!!!
Member
Since: Feb 05, 2006


Feb 23, 2006 12:09 pm

Hey Gregor, I am using my Boss Pedals;

Boss MT-2 Metal Zone Pedal
Boss NS-2 Noise Suppressor Pedal
Boss CS-3 Compression Sustainer Pedal
Boss GE-7 Equalizer Pedal

I have tried going directly from guitar to the amp but the sound was not good at all. I have tried the line out on my amp as well and the sound was very thin.

I love the sound of Decapitated. The guitars are very heavy, thick and tight. If you have not heard them go here: www.empire-records.com.pl/eng/massive/mp3.html they have three songs online.

From your web site I see you listed Carcass - "Heartwork". That is a great guitar sound as well. I would be in heaven to get anything close.

Any and all comments/feedback is welcomed...

I am not a crook's head
Member
Since: Mar 14, 2003


Feb 23, 2006 12:47 pm

I think that the $20 microphones may have something to do with it. I just have a feeling that they won't capture the sound of a guitar amp very well, especially since they're designed for vocals.

I don't think that solid-state Marshall combo amps are a very popular choice amongst death-metal guitarists. They're built more for rock and roll type stuff, but if you can get your desired sound out of it then great.

First thing I'd try is to make sure to double all of your heavy guitar parts. Record it once, then record it again on another track. Then pan them differently...like hard left/right. The subtle differences between 2 takes adds depth to the guitars and makes them a lot meatier. Heck, try doing the same guitar part 3 or 4 times and see if you like the result.

But once you start layering heavy guitars, you'll see why its recommended to turn the distortion down. After a couple of layers, all you end up hearing is the fizz and not the body.

Member
Since: Nov 15, 2005


Feb 23, 2006 01:35 pm

I've worked a bit on getting that heavey guitar tone (i.e. Blood Has Been Shed, Between the Buried and Me, Killswitch, etc.), and from studio time with my band (Glass Casket) i've come to find what I believe to be the best technique for heavy guitar tone.
1) Sit down right in front of the amp with speakers ear level. Use as much of the amp tone as possible for your distortion, but EQ with your ear right next to the speaker so you'll hear what the mic is going to hear. Get it to sound full, and make sure you have some mids in there (scooped tone won't get you anywhere but sounding super thin). Spend a good amount of time in this stage, and listen closely to any changes in the eq. I've made a solid state B-52 (no good tone in that amp) sound really heavy and full recorded. Try to stay away from the pedals for distortion, it almost always sounds artificial. If you can't get enough gain out of the amp with your ear next to it, add a little gain from the pedal, but i've never had to do this. A lot of guitar tone comes out recorded thin because people eq from where they are standing not thinking about the fact that they are not only off axis to the speakers, but much heigher so the high frequency transmission is partially lost. Thus they crank the highs but the microphone hears nothing but treble so the tone recorded comes out thin.
2) Face mic 1 at the dustcap (center) of the best sounding speaker in the cabinet. The mic can be within one inch of the grill, I prefer it touching the gril.
Mic 2 place on the outside of the speaker cone, right where the speaker ends and wood starts, and then point that mic towards the dustcap, so it sits at about a 45 degree angle when looking down from above, again close or touching the speaker grill. The best mics to use in my opinion for this setup are Shure SM57s.

Track rhythm guitars and pan both mics hard left in your software. Retrack the rhythm guitars the same way but pan the retrack hard right. If you do any lead stuff, pan that down the middle. I've gotten some pretty monster tone this way. Good luck.

Death Metal Freak!!!
Member
Since: Feb 05, 2006


Feb 23, 2006 03:00 pm

Hey Sid,

I have tried that as well (sitting in from of the amp) and still the guitar tone/sound sucks. I understand what your saying about the fizzy sound form the Metal Zone pedal. With-out it though the distortion is way to low and it is even worse. I did try lowering the distortion on the metal zone and that helped but over all the guitar sound is sad. I never would have thought recording guitars (death metal) would have been so dam hard. Spent all this money (new guitar, amp, mixer, mics, pedals, cords, drum machine software, recording software and I am no closer today than I was before I had all this crap.


I am not a crook's head
Member
Since: Mar 14, 2003


Feb 23, 2006 03:53 pm

If you don't like what's coming out of your amp in the first place, then no micing or recording technique is going to save you here.

It sounds like you need to go audition some guitars and amps until you find one that you like the sound of. That's where it all starts. From there on, its just a matter of capturing it.

Brands that I hear associated with this type of music a lot are Krank, Bogner, Mesa, and Randall. These are all pretty expensive options tho. But that's where the tone comes from!

Prince CZAR-ming
Member
Since: Apr 08, 2004


Feb 23, 2006 04:12 pm

I'd agree with Tad, if you're not getting a great tone out of the amp, then it's not going to be much when recorded. Garbage in, garbage out, as they say.

I'd also change the mics. Those are pretty inexpensive (cheap) mics. 2 sm57 probably would do worlds of good for you, if the amp tone is already good, that is.

Member
Since: Sep 08, 2004


Feb 23, 2006 05:35 pm

Hey Bloodsoaked. Check your e-mail. Sorry about the delay.

Later,
Kerry
Controlled Chaos
Materia Prima

Death Metal Freak!!!
Member
Since: Feb 05, 2006


Feb 23, 2006 05:41 pm

Hey Kerry (ControlledChaos),

I did not receive your email. Email me at: phasselbrack@nc.rr.com

Member
Since: Sep 08, 2004


Feb 23, 2006 05:43 pm

Oops...try again..who knows who I sent the first one to...hehe


Death Metal Freak!!!
Member
Since: Feb 05, 2006


Feb 23, 2006 05:46 pm

I like the sound I am getting when just jamming. It is the recorded sound I can not get right. I know I am not going to get a 100% polished guitar sound that is thick as hell (Decapitated, Hate, Lost Soul) with my home recording, but I am hoping to get as close as I can. Thank you for all the help.

Death Metal Freak!!!
Member
Since: Feb 05, 2006


Feb 23, 2006 05:48 pm

Thanks Controlledchaos, I just got it. I will reply soon.


Thank you!!!

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Feb 23, 2006 08:25 pm

Bloodsoaked, Tadpui has some a couple very valid things listed.

The mics for sure are not helping the recorded sound at all, in fact may be causing a lot of the problem.

And also, alot of that guitar tone will lie in getting a couple or more good layers of guitar down and blended well together. Not an easy task, but one that will surely work for that type of tone.

Death Metal Freak!!!
Member
Since: Feb 05, 2006


Feb 23, 2006 09:03 pm

Is it better to play a second or third guitar track rather than copy and past the track? Is there a difference in the final product?

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Feb 23, 2006 11:19 pm

Indeed, it is much better if you can record one or moer seperate alternate takes of the guitar track. Then blend them together. Of coarse with patients and time you can do alomst the same with a copied track. But honestly the littel diferances in the nuances of the playing will make for a much better blending if you simply do alternate takes.

Member
Since: Jan 08, 2004


Feb 23, 2006 11:39 pm

Bloodsoaked, Carcass's guitar sound on heartwork was several amps layered. A marshall stack with a rat pedal was one track and one track was direct and another was just a straight Marshall I believe. They said the sound sucked with just one track being played but together they sounded godly! They also had Terry Date at the board.I've heard he's pretty good at heavy guitar sounds. ;)

If you copy and paste a guitar track and it's an exact digital copy you have to change the phase of the track you just copied or you'll get phase cancellation.

I would also try another mic such as a shure SM57. If you don't have one rent one and try that.

Now playing Buried dreams by Carcass.:)

Death Metal Freak!!!
Member
Since: Feb 05, 2006


Feb 24, 2006 12:10 am

phase cancellation??? Huh?

I am a total newbie...

Member
Since: Jan 08, 2004


Feb 24, 2006 01:11 pm

www.pa-direct.co.uk/downl...ancellation.htm
www.sfu.ca/sca/Manuals/ZAAPf/p/phase.html


These will explain...

Member
Since: Feb 10, 2006


Feb 24, 2006 01:16 pm

Try this as well...

If your diggin the sound of your amp normally but you just cant get it to translate the same way recording it...try this.

Instead of getting down and sticking your ear in the speaker to determine what you think sounds best have someone move the mic a little at a time all over the speaker and at different distances while you're at the listening position next to your monitors while your chunking away. This will give you an opportunity to hear what the mic is hearing and how it is being interpreted through you're signal path.

Also if your using any kind of mic preamp turn down the gain/trim on the preamp and jack up the volume on your amp. You might be getting too much room in your sound. The volume should peak at about -6db's to -3db's on your console view.

Also if you need more low thump mic your amp sitting on the floor. If you're getting too much low end whamp get the amp off of the floor at least a foot or two.

Other than that...I say invest in better mic's & a good mic preamp.

Good luck!

Conjurer of Emotion
Member
Since: Jan 14, 2006


Feb 26, 2006 01:25 am

I say gregors comment about tracking different amps and also directly is a new suggestion that stands apart from all of the other common suggestions.

I love this idea! I don't know why I havent thought of it sooner. I have a tube amp and a half stack so that should make a decent mix of tone. If I am not shot down by utter dissapointment then I will post the results of my experiments and if it turns out well then you will know it works bloodsoaked. I have been having trouble like you.

www.homerecordingconnecti...=9797&frm=1

Member
Since: Jan 08, 2004


Feb 26, 2006 11:37 am

The reason you would use multiple trks when trying to get that godly tone is that usually one trk sounds ok but it's missing something. With trk layering it combines different freq and colors to make the sound more full. The guitar by itself may sound horrible but combined you may have the sound you've been looking for.


Also when doubling guitars I found a trick that works well if you play your parts with no variation.....when traking the second and third guitars don't listen to the previous guitars recorded, track it like it's the first track. This will let you concentrate on the track at hand instead of worrying whether you're matching the other guitar perfectly. You'll be surprised how well this works. God luck.

I have a correction to make. The Carcass sound was NOT what I had originally thought/posted. Here is an interview with the boys and they go in depth about how they got there heartwork sound.
www.goddamnbastard.org/ca...ws/gwinter.html

Death Metal Freak!!!
Member
Since: Feb 05, 2006


Feb 26, 2006 10:07 pm

Hey Goldenmean87, how did it turn out? Good or bad?

Peter

Death Metal Freak!!!
Member
Since: Feb 05, 2006


Feb 26, 2006 10:11 pm

Thanks allot Gregor,

Now...when layering tracks...

It is me and my friend and we both play guitar and we are using a drum machine. Should we both record two tracks each and have say my 2 tracks panned left and hit 2 tracks panned right? Should we need more than two guitar tracks each?

Then, is the Bass panned even, directly in the middle? Same for vocals and lead guitar? SHould there only be one track of bass?

Peter

Conjurer of Emotion
Member
Since: Jan 14, 2006


Feb 26, 2006 10:30 pm

I havent tried the multiple amp thing yet but I think wednesday I will have time to give it a wirl. In any case I will let ya know.

Conjurer of Emotion
Member
Since: Jan 14, 2006


Feb 26, 2006 10:31 pm

I havent tried the multiple amp thing yet but I think wednesday I will have time to give it a wirl. In any case I will let ya know.

Member
Since: Jan 08, 2004


Feb 26, 2006 11:39 pm

the panning is up to you. It all depends on what you're looking for. If I had 4 trks to work with I would try it the way you stated previously and I would also try and pan one trk hard left and the second trk at about 9 or 10 o'clock position and just mirror that method on the next two tracks and see if that thickens it up. 2 tracks per rhythm guitar is enough any more than that and it becomes more work for you and frequencies start to clash and become mudd.

You may want to have 2 tracks for bass, one direct and one mic'ed with a good bass mic...something like an AKG D112. Mix those two together and use the direct sound for attack and the mic'ed sound for low end.

Lead vox and guitar should be down the middle unless you're going for a certain effect.
A good trick to try is when tracking backing vox is do 2 in addition to the lead and keep the lead vox in the middle and then pan one backing voxto a 9pm position and the other backing vox to a 3pm position. This can vary on what you're looking for. If that doesn't work try a 10pm and 2pm pan position. Try singing one vox deeper and one vox higher and see how that sounds. Maybe try a whisper in some parts for effect.

Always record your drums in stereo.

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Mar 01, 2006 02:57 pm

www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html


this about covers it

I am not a crook's head
Member
Since: Mar 14, 2003


Mar 01, 2006 02:59 pm

Hehe yeah I've read that article. Good stuff in there, but that has to be THE most obnoxious article I've ever suffered through. Someone needs to create an article with the same info, but minus the deep-seeded animosity towards guitarists.

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Mar 01, 2006 03:04 pm

heh yeah, it's my go-to manual for guitars, i kinda dig the humor.

Prince CZAR-ming
Member
Since: Apr 08, 2004


Mar 01, 2006 03:59 pm

wow, i've only read 5 minutes of this, and am already chuckling about it. This is going to be a treat, for sure.

Thanks for the linky, hadn't seen this one before.


Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Mar 01, 2006 04:21 pm

yeah i've read the whole thing once, and then i go back to certain parts on ocasion, i love the mic positioning section, kills me every time.

Conjurer of Emotion
Member
Since: Jan 14, 2006


Mar 01, 2006 06:41 pm

Well Bloodsoaked, I tried the multiple amp thing and did some panning etc.

My purevolume isnt working so hopefully this myspace crap plays for once.

Click on "multiple amp guitar..."

www.myspace.com/dimmuborgir87

tell me what you think of the results...

Prince CZAR-ming
Member
Since: Apr 08, 2004


Mar 01, 2006 10:50 pm

the sweeping swirls, and the gun reference. Yeah, he's quickly becoming my new hero. . .

wait a minute,

I play guitar. uh-oh =).

Prince CZAR-ming
Member
Since: Apr 08, 2004


Mar 01, 2006 10:55 pm

sorry, back to topic, I listened to the clip, and for what it's worth, i liked the lower, chord type sound. It had more lower end, and more beef to it. The upper part sounded more thin.

I'm not the best to judge, not having done much of it myself, but figured I'd kick in my idea, since I kinda hi-jacked the thread =).

Conjurer of Emotion
Member
Since: Jan 14, 2006


Mar 01, 2006 11:01 pm

so what would you suggest to remedy the thin sound of the highs? I would like to get it right so anyone go ahead and dish out your ideas :)

Prince CZAR-ming
Member
Since: Apr 08, 2004


Mar 01, 2006 11:09 pm

hmm, i wish i could help more, but i'm pretty green with heavy guitars. I play it on and off, but haven't recorded yet.

The two i'd read back through would be whosyourdaddy and dragonorchid. Those two come to mind right off for doing pretty well with getting good heavy sounds.

Conjurer of Emotion
Member
Since: Jan 14, 2006


Mar 01, 2006 11:21 pm

Yeah, but it all appears to be the same information. "use sm57 riight up in the grill, its great! then place a condenser nearby and your golden" Well um thats really not workin for me lol, and I am aware of panning and EQ. So I dunno, I'm sure there is much more to their technique than just the mic model and placement.

Death Metal Freak!!!
Member
Since: Feb 05, 2006


Mar 01, 2006 11:31 pm

Hey Goldenmean87, it sounded a bit to thin to me. I should not be one to judge as my heavy guitar sound is not great either. I should be able to post some newly recorded guitar tracks over the weekend. I have been sick as hell the last week and have not done much.

What kind of heavy guitar sound are you trying to get? How was that new sample recorded?

Conjurer of Emotion
Member
Since: Jan 14, 2006


Mar 02, 2006 11:05 am

I'm just going for thick/fat sound, the best i can get. I used an sm57 and a condenser on my Crate vintage Club Tube amp, and also on my half stack. I then directly connected the half stack. I believe the direct recording added alot of the thin sound and I also may have to record another track with more bass in it since I had the stack with less bass and I elevated the tube amp to eliminate the rumble sound of the floor.

I really can't see these small changes making a world of difference. It just seems like many people on these forums are able to get some good guitar sound but then when it comes to explaining how to get it the information is very generic because they dont feel like going into detail. Thats just how it comes off to me because I am using all of the advice I have been given and I am not using one piece of cheap equipment.

It gets pretty tiring...

Prince CZAR-ming
Member
Since: Apr 08, 2004


Mar 02, 2006 11:19 am

my guess is that it's very detailed for each instance. You won't get a specific letter by letter list of what to do to achieve XXX sound, because the variables are huge.

Guitar, playing style, cords/cables, amp preamp/ amp, sound of when amp creates best tone, room the amp/mic is in, reflections, mud, mic placement, mic choice, mic age/condition (they can be rebuilt), mic cord, preamp, etc.

All these are affecting the sound getting into the PC. Plus there's the PC 'digital' vs. analog. It's seemingly never-ending.

I've been reading through that guitar article, posted above, and it's got some real useful ideas in it. Things that most home/hobby types don't go through.

That's why audio engineers that are good, are wanted: they've figured out all this stuff already, and can duplicate it for whomever.

But I do think part of your sound on that clip are very close (at least to what I'm thinking you're looking for). Start with that, and try different things that will fatten up the upper sounds.

another thing, for every expirement you try that doesn't really work, you've just eliminated another option from your list. =)

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Mar 02, 2006 12:39 pm

good words there pjk....yeah ya gotta start at the source of the sound, if you're not gettin' a good sound out of the amp to start with, then it'll only get worse..

dial in your 'normal' heavy tone, back off the preamp gain quite a bit (you should be able to play open chords and have it sound okay).....then ya gotta crank that bastard up LOUD....the goal here is to get the mic's diaphragm MOVING, you don't wanna use your mic preamp to set the level (to a degree) use your amps master volume, if you want big sound, you gotta move lots of air.

next check your eq settings on the amp, i start with everything at zero, and go from there...you don't want much thunderus room shaking low end (your mic's proximity effect will give you that) i generally cut the highs and lows a bit (cuz when you crank the volume, they get ear pearcing.

ok no you have a good 'recording' tone.....next up, and it's a BIGGIE, is mic placement....i swear to allah, you can get all the tone you need with one single 57, and if you got another mic, great. start with a friend holding the mic for you and you go into your control room and listen through the monitors (hopefully you will not be hearing ANY of the amp sound in your room, you wanna focus on what's beeing recorded....have your friend start front and center on a speaker....you'll get lotsa highs and not much lows....have him go left and right real slowly, the outter area of the speaker will be more bassy....then have him move in and out, the closer, the more bass (proximity effect), the further away, the more room sound you'll get (this could be good or bad)

ok so you found the sweet spot....tweak your mic pre so when you palm mute a heavy chunk chord, it dosn't clip (but get's close) try to keep your signal around -10 db's....again try to use your amp more then the mic pre for gettin' it there.

if ya got a second mic, (hopefully a Large Diaphragm Condensor) place it using the same techniques from above.....try to capture a different sound than the 57, mute the 57 when checking tone.

after recording, it's VERY VERY VERY important you get your different sources (direct, close mic, and distance mic) all time aligned....match them to the mic that's furthest away from the amp. if you do not do this, you can kiss your killer tone goodbye, phasing WILL occure and combfiltering CANNOT be undone. seriously take the time to get this right.


gotta go, i'll be back in an hour.

cheers

wyd

Conjurer of Emotion
Member
Since: Jan 14, 2006


Mar 02, 2006 01:18 pm

pjk and whosyourdaddy, thanks for the extensive attempts to help. I have taken everything you have said into consideration.

Whosyourdaddy, I am aware of that entire proccess but I am lacking in two areas. One is that I have little time to get a friend over here so once I get another person then I should have waayy more luck in actually focusing on the source tone since I cant keep going back and forth from room to room and playing, I mean that could take years.

Also I could very well be suffering from phasing, but I dont quite understand your last paragraph. What do you mean exactly by time aligned? I know that phasig occurs when a sound source reaches two different mics at different times but when recording, both mics are recorded to the same track so I don't see how I could fix that...

If you could, I would appreciate if you could elaborate on how to correct phasing or prevent it.

Prince CZAR-ming
Member
Since: Apr 08, 2004


Mar 02, 2006 01:38 pm

i'll give a whack at this one;

audio is a sine wave, with positive (+) parts of the sine wave, and negative (-) parts of the sine wave.

when audio goes out from the source, it's in waves of + and -. + then - then + then -, you get the idea.

If you have two mics, X and Y sitting in the room, then they'll both be picking up the + part and - part of the sine wave.

If one is a little closer to the source than the other, then when X is getting the + part of the wave, while Y is getting the - part of the wave.

Both mics are writing the wave file in + and - waveforms, but when one is +, the other is - and these will flip back and forth in the sine wave type fashion.

When you listen back to the signals (hopefully both tracks are separate) the + from one track will cancel out the - from the other track, resulting in a thin, wimpy type sound.

If you have two exactly alike wave forms, totally out of phase with each other, the result would be silence. This is how balanced cables work. phasing out any picked up noise from the cable.

If the two mic's signals are combined and written as one track, then there's nothing you can do to get any phase correction. It's already written as a thin sounding wave file.

If you have the two separate tracks in an editor program, you can nudge one of the track to line it up with the other track, so when X track is peaking +, the other track is peaking + as well.

Mostly, you want the two mics to be equal distance from the source. Then the two tracks will be in phase with each other. In setting up drums, people will tape a string from the center of the snare drum, and put the two overheads the same distance from the snare, so no 'out of phase' issues arise. It can still happen with other drum mics, but it's not as bad.

hope that helps

Conjurer of Emotion
Member
Since: Jan 14, 2006


Mar 02, 2006 02:03 pm

well there are two problems. One is that everybody says to put an sm57 right up to the cab and a condenser further away to catch the room sound and also prevent overdriving the mic. So this would inevitably cause phasing. Also, how do I get the two mics playing on two different tracks in the software while playing into them at the same time? Do you mean to cut one mic and play into the sm57 and then vise versa for the condenser? Or is there a way to have them both on seperate tracks in the software without having to play twice? I have my gear listed so maybe you could help me out.

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Mar 02, 2006 02:12 pm

wow, excellent explaination there!!
yeah you gotta seperate the different mic tracks...ya can do this even if you only have two inputs on your computer (L+R).....simply pan each mic hard left and hard right, and setup two different channels in your recording app, each only recording one (mono) signal.....you can see your phase problem by zooming in on them (seperate tracks here) one waveform will be gooing up (+) while the other will be going down (-)....if you cannot sepearate the tracks, then only use ONE mic, and just re-record another track later....

which leads me to my next segment, mixing.

the best, and easiest, way to thicken up guitars is to have mutiple tracks of 'em, don't just copy and paste one (which does help, but it's better to play the whole thing through again) and pan them appart from each other....i've done a song that had just one guitar player, but we ended up with 5 tracks of him....this WILL help your sound...

after you get all the tracks recorded, i like to eq next, for most dist. guitars, i gently roll everything off starting at around 200hz, it's all muck down there. the 'beef' of your guitar sits between 200 and 400hz....then i scoop out the mids around 1K to leave room for the vocals, and a gentle boost around 4k will add sizzle.

i generally don't compress distorted guitars, unless there's lots of volume jumping from loud (palm muted chunks) to quiet (full on power chords with no muting).

and if you really wanna get crazy, try copying a track and playin' with some effect plugins, i've gotten some interesting sounds with ReValver and the like.

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Mar 02, 2006 02:15 pm

with the gear you listed, you definately can get two seperate tracks....tap the 'insert' jacks on your board (i think it should have some) by using a 1/4" cable plugged half way into the insert jack, and run that to the mobile pre, you should be able to do this with both mics...

in cakewalk, set your input to record just ONE of the trakcs, then setup another audio track and tell it to record the other input on your mobile pre.

definately doable here.

Prince CZAR-ming
Member
Since: Apr 08, 2004


Mar 02, 2006 02:28 pm

Quote:
One is that everybody says to put an sm57 right up to the cab and a condenser further away to catch the room sound and also prevent overdriving the mic. So this would inevitably cause phasing


not necessarily. this is where it will take a little time to get the feel and ear for it. WYD says to put the farthest one up first. So start with that, then in the ctrl room / headphones, listen while the close mic gets moved around, closer, and further, little bits at a time. This should let you hear the phasing difference. The strongest, fullest sound will be in phase, while the thin sound will be out of phase. lock it down at the fullest, best sound, and go from there.

Quote:
Also, how do I get the two mics playing on two different tracks in the software while playing into them at the same time?


This part is like WYD says, use the insert jack to run from mixer to sound interface. Sub-outs work as well, also direct outs on some mixers. Then in software, tell CW to record each incoming signal to separate tracks. In ntrack is 'create two mono tracks' instead of 'create stereo track'. This will give you 2 separate tracks in CW.

If the two are slightly off, then you can zoom in like WYD said and align the peaks, so they're both at the same time.

Moving one track 'a nudge' won't be noticable to your ear, as far as timing goes, as it'll be in the very low millisecond range. You ears will notice the difference in the fullness of the two signals though, or the thinness if you move too far, and put them out of phase again.

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Mar 02, 2006 03:27 pm

for the record, when i said to "start with the mic that's furthest away" i was talkin' about when you line up the tracks in your DAW, cuz it's easier to nudge tracks to the right, then to cut off some of the beginning and nudge to the left.....but ya got me thinkin' about mic checking, and i bet it's probably better to setup the close mic first (cuz i feel this is the 'more important' of the two tracks, and the sound changes dramatically with just a small move, so i'd rather lock that one into place, and 'float' around with the distant mic.

Prince CZAR-ming
Member
Since: Apr 08, 2004


Mar 02, 2006 03:54 pm

heh, i wondered about that, but figured you had better reasons that I. which, i don't really have any, just quoting you =).

Now that I think about it, it makes more sense, because the close mic may be very speficically set (angle, direction of pointing, distance, etc) whereas the further mic wont be so dependant upon angle to speaker, etc.

Conjurer of Emotion
Member
Since: Jan 14, 2006


Mar 02, 2006 07:55 pm

ahh ok, thanks everyone. Yes I have never used the inserts before and I checked cakewalk and its a breeze to seperate the channels! So I will give that a wirl.

I have two more questions. One is about cakewalk for anyone that has used it. I don't know how to edit wavs in that program, I used to use cool edit pro so it was easy to just go play with the wav but cakewalk has a much higher capacity for sound levels so I switched to that but it seems like a much more rigid program. So how to I go and edit wavs with CW?

Also, I have been using my external EQ in the chain right after the mixer main out in order to get the best sound going into th PC. I have a feeling this may be a big mistake contributing to my problem since everyone seems to say they EQ after recording. If it is smarter to EQ afterwards for some reason, then how can I do this with my external EQ and not the ones in the software?

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Mar 02, 2006 08:32 pm

ummm i just zoom in and click away! hehe

what kinda editing are ya talkin' about?

to move it over, just click and drag, press 's' to split a clip into two (or more)

crossfades are at the top right and left corners (watch your mouse cursor) er wait, is that cubase??? uhhh geez i'm startin' to get the two mixed up! and click on the edge of the clip to shorten it up some (again watch your mouse cursor change)

dude, unless you're rockin' a wicked nice eq (outboard) you're prolly dooin' more damage than good to the sound, specifically noize, from my experiance, unless i'm using nice quality outboard gear, it's not worth even tryin'.....and to answer your second question you need to route a signal to an output on your interface/soundcard then send it back into an input....again' my advice is to not even bother.


Conjurer of Emotion
Member
Since: Jan 14, 2006


Mar 03, 2006 02:30 pm

Ok thanks, well i will try more software EQ, but as far as CW, it only drags from one large block to another. I can't figure out how to just nudge it a little. In the main track view with standard settings, if you just click and drag it will only go from block to block. So please elaborate on how to simply move at any specific degree the user desires.

Hold 'Em Czar
Member
Since: Dec 30, 2004


Mar 03, 2006 02:38 pm

there should be a little button in your tool bar that looks like a tic-tack-toe board, this is your "snap to grid" feature, it's great for adjusting things in time with the music (if you set your tempo)....just make sure it's not pushed on and you'll be strait.

cheers

wyd

Conjurer of Emotion
Member
Since: Jan 14, 2006


Mar 03, 2006 02:44 pm

ahhh thank you lol. I love how all of my problems are something rediculously easy but it takes forever for me to figure out.

Well now I will have to try some phase correction with a new recording...

Pinnipedal Czar (: 3=
Member
Since: Apr 11, 2004


Mar 03, 2006 03:13 pm

Quote:
I love how all of my problems are something rediculously easy but it takes forever for me to figure out.


I have found a real zen approach to dealing with situations like that:

I walk away, like the problem isn't happening and eat something... like a sandwhich... then I approach it again; and like magic, usually within the first 60 seconds, I have the answer .

I'm not sure why this has been working, and I don't care if I get fat... just as long as it keeps working . : p

Czar of Midi
Administrator
Since: Apr 04, 2002


Mar 03, 2006 10:43 pm

Hue, that is funny. If I ate a sandwich everytime I flaked out on something I would be to big to sit in my chair.

But ya, walking away for a moment or two is one of the best cures for that stuff.

Death Metal Freak!!!
Member
Since: Feb 05, 2006


Mar 04, 2006 12:23 am

Goldenmean87, do you have any new guitar tracks? I will upload some new ones I made tomorrow.

I truly beleive it is not the mic, mic placement, mixer, preamp or any of that, that will give you the sound your looking for. If you have a killer guitar with a killer amp that has a killer tight, cruch death metal sound it will sound liek that when recorded. Little things here and there will make a difference to the trained ear but that is all. Get a great guitar sound and record it with a boom box and you will hear a killer guitar sound.

Death Metal Freak!!!
Member
Since: Feb 05, 2006


Mar 04, 2006 12:31 am

Got a general question:


Ok, we have two guitar players and one bass player we want to record. We are recording death metal if it matters.

How many guitar tracks should each guitar player record? Should all the first guitar be paned right and all the second guitar be paned left?

How many tracks of bass? Should bass be paned directly in the middle?


Thank you...

Death Metal Freak!!!
Member
Since: Feb 05, 2006


Mar 04, 2006 02:43 pm

If anyone is interested in giving feedback on guitar and drum sounds please follow the link below and listen to the "Test Song". Thank you...

www.soundclick.com/bands/...m?bandID=481840

Conjurer of Emotion
Member
Since: Jan 14, 2006


Mar 05, 2006 10:01 pm

Bloodsoaked, I am currently revamping my whole studio setup so I wont be recording anything for maybe 2 weeks but I have some fresh ideas to try that I think will come out great.

I still dont like your choice of drums at all sorry. Is it just me? I seriously think they are really bad, but I beatcraft is not a bad drum program. Its just some of the specific samples you are using mainly.

Member
Since: Dec 29, 2004


Mar 06, 2006 04:14 pm

coming from a fellow metalhead
most of these amps you guys are usin just dont cut it. guitar pickups play A HUGE ROLE as well,
a common choice is the emg 81 active pickup, im a user and a beleiver, regular 2x humbuckers on gibsons and such are good but not quite "deathmetal"

TUNE LOWER for a more wickd sounds

id suggest framus, randall, peavy 5150, mesa amps
tubes only

ALSO, metal guitar needs to mantain fluidity, w/ hammers/ pulloffs etc. the large diaphramgm condenser placed back a few feet should be taking care of this by picking up a combo of all 4 speakers in your cab, the more speakers the fluidity is preserved and the less gain you have to use, and the more tone you get and the less fuzzzzzzzzzz

Death Metal Freak!!!
Member
Since: Feb 05, 2006


Mar 06, 2006 07:35 pm

Hey Goldenmean87, what exactly do not like about the drum sound? The snare, the kick or both? These are different from what I had before. I myself really like the kick drum. Do you think the snare is to loud or do you just not like it all together?

Conjurer of Emotion
Member
Since: Jan 14, 2006


Mar 07, 2006 06:00 pm

I only use 7-string guitars btglenn so I cant go buy whatever pickup I want since availability is extremely low. The duncan invader for 7-strings seems to be the best I have used so far.

One thing I am curious about though concerns my cabinet. It is an Ampeg that I bought off a friend a while ago. At the time I didn't know that Ampeg was all about bass cabinets. But at the same time, this cab looks exactly like a guitar cab and nothing like a bass cab. Bass cabs are usually really tall or you can see through their grills. This ampeg cab that I own looks just like a marshall cab only with the name Ampeg on it. I tried to see if Ampeg had ever made guitar cabinets but I couldnt find any and the model number of mine has this crazy permanent label stuck right over it...

So if anyone knows about Ampeg making guitar cabs or anything let me know.

And Bloodsoaked, its still the snare that sounds really bad in my opinion. Try to get an opinion from an admin or something to see what they think.

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